New coronavirus in/from China

[kenneal - lagger]

Getting back to science, SAGE is telling the government that another lockdown is needed to get the spread of the virus under control.

[Little John]

You absolute bullshitter.

Nobody is questioning that an infection is underway., What is being questioned is:

(a) the severity of the infection for the vast majority of people and, as a consequence
(bi) the epidemiological and economic function of locking down an entire population, initially of the whole country and now of large sections of the country, in turn devastating economies and livelihoods with all of the destruction of people lives for decades and generations to come that implies - including the shortening of lives born of that poverty.
(bii) the right of any government to strip away the liberties of people on the basis of a virus that is not mortally dangerous to at least 98% of them.

[UndercoverElephant]

The rules surrounding covid have now descended into total farce.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-54523232

How much food makes a "substantial meal"? It's a question many people in Liverpool are asking themselves.

It's after pubs in the city and surrounding areas were told to temporarily shut as part of new Covid restrictions unless they serve food.

But there is confusion around what counts. A packet of crisps? A quick pasty?

[...]

Housing Secretary Robert Jenrick has been trying to clear this confusion up.

He told radio station LBC a pasty on its own doesn't count but if you stick a salad or chips on the plate with it, you could be all right.

"If you would expect to go into that restaurant normally, or pub, and order a plated meal at the table of a Cornish pasty with chips or side salad or whatever it comes with, then that's a normal meal," he explained.

Our local pub now has a rule that you must wear a mask when you are walking or standing, but you can take it off when you sit down.

None of it makes the slightest bit of sense anymore. The government is attempting to square a circle, and the result is some sort of weird performance art.

[RevdTess]

From the Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... age-advice

We now find ourselves occupying the worst of all worlds: a limbo where the pandemic drags on and causes more damage, leaving us hopeless and praying for a vaccine. The government’s policy of continuous local lockdowns will disrupt everyday lives and damage businesses, but it won’t suppress the virus. England’s chief medical officer Chris Whitty conceded as much in a recent press briefing: in an extraordinary piece of political theatre, he followed the prime minister’s announcement of the three-tier system with a warning that these new measures won’t work.

It’s not that people are unable to put up with hardship or suffering. As we saw during the first wave, people can and will make considerable sacrifices for a common cause – if they see a point to it. But people aren’t stupid. They won’t simply suffer for the sake of it. If they do give up on these lockdown measures, it won’t be because they have failed: it will be because the government has failed them.

Johnson is performing a miracle - reuniting a fractured society of Brexiteers and liberals who all agree he's ruining people's lives without actually doing anything effective.

[Little John]

From the Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... age-advice

We now find ourselves occupying the worst of all worlds: a limbo where the pandemic drags on and causes more damage, leaving us hopeless and praying for a vaccine. The government’s policy of continuous local lockdowns will disrupt everyday lives and damage businesses, but it won’t suppress the virus. England’s chief medical officer Chris Whitty conceded as much in a recent press briefing: in an extraordinary piece of political theatre, he followed the prime minister’s announcement of the three-tier system with a warning that these new measures won’t work.

It’s not that people are unable to put up with hardship or suffering. As we saw during the first wave, people can and will make considerable sacrifices for a common cause – if they see a point to it. But people aren’t stupid. They won’t simply suffer for the sake of it. If they do give up on these lockdown measures, it won’t be because they have failed: it will be because the government has failed them.

Johnson is performing a miracle - reuniting a fractured society of Brexiteers and liberals who all agree he's ruining people's lives without actually doing anything effective.

The divide is between on the one hand:

The proletariat and old school nation statists of both the left and right and the upsurging nation statist flank of the capitalist ruling class

and on the other:

The bourgeoisie, the petite bourgeoisie and the currently dominant (but potentially declining) globalist flank of the capitalist ruling class.

The proletariat and old school nation statists of both the left and right have nothing in common with the upsurging nation statist flank of the capitalist ruling class other than a temporary convergence of interests.

The petite bourgeoisie and bourgeoisie have nothing in common with the currently dominant flank of the capitalist ruling class other than the (possibly temporary) fact of their dominance.

"Brexiteers" and "liberals" are merely temporary demographic place-markers of the above. That is all.

This is not about Left versus Right and it is not about Liberalism versus Authoritarianism. It is about Localism versus Globalism and different sections of society have taken sides on the basis of their perceived economic interests.

[stumuz1]

This is not about Left versus Right and it is not about Liberalism versus Authoritarianism. It is about Localism versus Globalism and different sections of society have taken sides on the basis of their perceived economic interests.

I agree with this. Peoples view on the efficacy of the management of the pandemic will be coloured by their economic interests, especially their economic liabilities.

Elderly parents whom have mortgaged their home to give money to their child to open a gastro pub, will have very different ideas on how to control the pandemic than elderly parents whom are living frugally off their state pension.

My litmus test to see how the PM is doing to compare him with their counterparts, Macron,Rutte, etc.

They are caught between accusations of;
1. Letting the disease get out of control
2. Vilified for ruining business by locking down
3. Vilified for increased deaths by not locking down
4. Poor track and trace

And let us not forget the spectre of Nationalism that is emerging. Local politicians are are appearing like a rash on media suggesting with the heaviest of hearts to block the border so Liverpool people cannot come to Wales. So far, Bojo is telling them to shove their faux hatred where the sun don't shine.

[RevdTess]

This is not about Left versus Right and it is not about Liberalism versus Authoritarianism. It is about Localism versus Globalism and different sections of society have taken sides on the basis of their perceived economic interests.

Not sure how I feel about this. I see myself as primarily a liberal fighting authoritarianism. I need to do that because authoritarianism in this country tends to be right wing and makes life harder for people on the margins. That's my experience. I realise there are others who feel that authoritarianism is needed to protect them from being moved to the margins. This is why often liberalism can be just as authoritarian, if not more so, when it gets the chance. e.g. the 'cancel culture'.

But I am also a Localist (more specifically an Autarkist). I've never been a Globalist. I opposed Brexit because of its inherent authoritarianism (desire for control in order to freely oppress those on the margin) and because it is still fundamentally globalist.

But now we're in the wrong thread again. Back to Covid!

[careful_eugene]

The rules surrounding covid have now descended into total farce.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-54523232

How much food makes a "substantial meal"? It's a question many people in Liverpool are asking themselves.

It's after pubs in the city and surrounding areas were told to temporarily shut as part of new Covid restrictions unless they serve food.

But there is confusion around what counts. A packet of crisps? A quick pasty?

[...]

Housing Secretary Robert Jenrick has been trying to clear this confusion up.

He told radio station LBC a pasty on its own doesn't count but if you stick a salad or chips on the plate with it, you could be all right.

"If you would expect to go into that restaurant normally, or pub, and order a plated meal at the table of a Cornish pasty with chips or side salad or whatever it comes with, then that's a normal meal," he explained.

Our local pub now has a rule that you must wear a mask when you are walking or standing, but you can take it off when you sit down.

None of it makes the slightest bit of sense anymore. The government is attempting to square a circle, and the result is some sort of weird performance art.

I think the "substantial meal" rule is aimed at keeping Wetherspoons open, the owner is a mate of the prime minister. The mask whilst walking through the pub rule is in force in my area as well and it really is a farce.

[Little John]

This is not about Left versus Right and it is not about Liberalism versus Authoritarianism. It is about Localism versus Globalism and different sections of society have taken sides on the basis of their perceived economic interests.

Not sure how I feel about this. I see myself as primarily a liberal fighting authoritarianism. I need to do that because authoritarianism in this country tends to be right wing and makes life harder for people on the margins. That's my experience. I realise there are others who feel that authoritarianism is needed to protect them from being moved to the margins. This is why often liberalism can be just as authoritarian, if not more so, when it gets the chance. e.g. the 'cancel culture'.

But I am also a Localist (more specifically an Autarkist). I've never been a Globalist. I opposed Brexit because of its inherent authoritarianism (desire for control in order to freely oppress those on the margin) and because it is still fundamentally globalist.

But now we're in the wrong thread again. Back to Covid!

No, the version of Brexit you oppose is globalist/right wing. That is all (though, even on that I think you are confused). The fact there was not a version of Brexit available to the voting public that was not globalist - that could and should have been internationalist - is entirely a function of the liberal Left comprising of people just like you having control of the levers of power in the mainstream left in this country's political class, thus ensuring that option was never available. So, people did not vote "Tory" last year. They voted for the only show in town in terms of [claiming] to honour their vote of 2016. The fact that the Tories will betray that 2016 vote no more or less than any of the other traitors to this country currently sitting in parliament is another issue again.

A Tory Brexit is the fault of people just like you Tess.

[Little John]

https://archive.vn/Z63tA

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/ ... int-trust/

Yes, Boris, this is the tipping point – for our trust in you

Local lockdowns, with baffling facts and figures to justify them, are just the latest punishment for a weary population

Here we go again. Vast swathes of the north of England have been put back into special measures under a new, three-tier system announced by the Prime Minister, despite a welcome admission from the World Health Organisation that lockdowns don’t work. Which of the three levels of risk does your area fall into: 1. Dread; 2. Super-Dread; or 3. Deceased by Saturday?

According to the Government, the city where I live is at ‘Medium’ risk from Covid-19. That’s odd. A doctor who works at the big teaching hospital, a centre of excellence for the whole of East Anglia, assures me there are seven patients on the Covid ward, no Covid patients in ICU, and 60 awaiting test results. That sounds like a pretty low risk to me. Far more chance that I’ll die in a road accident or clonk my head on the door of the Aga as I bend down to take the banana bread out of the baking drawer (as I did on Sunday) than perish from corona.

Despite what the TV headlines may screech on the hour, every hour, for the vast majority of Britons there’s still relatively little to worry about. Even at the peak, our hospital never exceeded 50 per cent of ICU capacity. Very few of them did. The Nightingale hospitals, put up at vast expense to help out if the NHS became overwhelmed, were hardly used. Some, including a huge one in Birmingham, have recently been taken down by workmen who cheerfully cursed the “effing waste of money�.

Why would ministers and scientific advisers scare us, as they did this week, with the threat of putting the Nightingales on red alert, as though waving some ghoulish shroud at Hallowe’en, when they must have given the order to decommission those hospitals? The grim conclusion is that it suits them to treat the public like children. They keep us in a state of fear so we dare not question the measures that are wrecking our economy, causing anguished family separations and condemning pregnant women to endure labour alone and even wear a mask to meet their new baby, as well as killing thousands upon thousands of non-Covid patients. It is unforgivable.

There is no tier for ‘Low’ risk in the new Covid warning system. Of course there isn’t. People must not be allowed to get the impression that it’s safe to keep calm and carry on, as a previous generation of Britons managed while being bombarded by something infinitely more lethal than a microbe whose victims have an average age of 82.4 years.

In London, where Mayor Sadiq Khan was agitating yesterday for more job-destroying measures for his beleaguered, broken city, a fourfold increase in Covid “cases� during September has not translated into rapidly rising hospital admissions or deaths. The number of false positives derived from those dodgy PCR tests makes it hard to get a true picture, but it looks as if high numbers of infections are not leading to deaths because the capital may be on its way to achieving herd immunity. Pray that it may be so.

At the height of the crisis, it was not unknown to have 1,000 Covid deaths in a single day. On Monday, there were 65 in all of England and Wales, yet Professor Jonathan Van-Tam, the Deputy Chief Medical Officer, insisted on calling this a “tipping point�. Cue baffling slides designed to prepare a weary population for more punishment while taking the ‘dem’ (for democracy) out of pandemic. Oh, what a tangled statistical web they weave when first they practice to deceive!

It’s now three weeks since that notorious Graph of Doom when Sir Patrick Vallance told us that Covid cases could start doubling every seven or eight days, which meant that, by mid-October, there would be 50,000 a day. By one calculation, the Vallance projection needed 262,424 cases to be announced yesterday for the moving average for the week to hit 50,000. Did Pat perchance find those quarter of a million cases down the back of the same sofa where Dido, Queen of Carnage, discovered the 16,000 missing Test and Trace contacts?

To be fair to Baroness Harding, the poor woman has only been given £12.6 billion to come up with a workable NHS tracking system. With that amount, you could have paid every single elderly and vulnerable person in the UK £60,000 to shield themselves in the Bahamas and used the change to recompense students for their non-existent university experience.

You might think we were owed an apology for these monstrous blunders and miscalculations, but the scientists and public health officials plough on unabashed. Unbelievably, some even got gongs in the Honours List. They are relishing their moment in the limelight and can afford to be much more risk-averse than a Sunderland publican or a Merseyside gym owner, who can’t hold back the tears as they watch the businesses they built up over many years crumble to dust, closed by ministerial diktat.

I’m sick of the Sage scaremongers who now accuse the Government of acting too late and failing to impose a “circuit breaker� of stricter measures three week ago. Hang on, wasn’t it Sage that, back at the beginning, wanted no lockdown at all? As a group of 12 members of the House of Lords wrote in a letter to The Times this week: “If lockdown were a treatment undergoing a clinical trial, the trial would be halted because of the side-effects�.

It certainly would. I’m a bit more hopeful today that the PM is starting to wrest some control back from Sir Patrick and the pessimist paradigm. But if Boris doesn’t trust the British people with the truth – according to the most recent peer-reviewed paper on Covid-19, 99.8 per cent of all people who get the virus survive, including 99.96 per cent of those under 70 – then why on earth should we trust him? Treat us like children and we’ll act like them. They call this a tipping point and they well could be right, but not in the way they think. Their pointless, destructive local lockdowns will end in tiers.

[careful_eugene]

Northern Ireland going into lockdown again.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus- ... s-12103640

[kenneal - lagger]

You absolute bullshitter.

.............

You keep going on about what the science is saying, LJ. Now the scientists, who must have something to do with the science are saying that we should have a lockdown and probably should have started three weeks ago.

All I was quoting was the science. Where's the bullshitting in that apart from the fact that it doesn't suite your daft political leanings.

[kenneal - lagger]

I think that the government are trying to achieve herd immunity but at a rate which doesn't block up hospitals with covid patients. So the economy must take a slightly harder hit in order that people sick with other illnesses can still get treatment.

The alternative of letting the pandemic rip, as LJ seems to want, would see hospitals clogged with covid patients and people dying for want of hospital treatments for other diseases.

[UndercoverElephant]

From the Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... age-advice

We now find ourselves occupying the worst of all worlds: a limbo where the pandemic drags on and causes more damage, leaving us hopeless and praying for a vaccine. The government’s policy of continuous local lockdowns will disrupt everyday lives and damage businesses, but it won’t suppress the virus. England’s chief medical officer Chris Whitty conceded as much in a recent press briefing: in an extraordinary piece of political theatre, he followed the prime minister’s announcement of the three-tier system with a warning that these new measures won’t work.

It’s not that people are unable to put up with hardship or suffering. As we saw during the first wave, people can and will make considerable sacrifices for a common cause – if they see a point to it. But people aren’t stupid. They won’t simply suffer for the sake of it. If they do give up on these lockdown measures, it won’t be because they have failed: it will be because the government has failed them.

Johnson is performing a miracle - reuniting a fractured society of Brexiteers and liberals who all agree he's ruining people's lives without actually doing anything effective.

Yes. I have given up even trying to understand what the rules are, because I am certain they are pointless and they will probably change next week anyway. I will just run my business in a way I see fit, and allow my customers to make their own minds up. Speaking of which... https://imgur.com/u4wMJc7

[fuzzy]

I'm guessing you aren't Mary Berry? You look well fed for a forager. You must be good at it.