Migrant watch (merged topic)

Snail · Post by **Snail** » 24 Mar 2016, 17:58

This change may happen very quickly. 'Powerful' people such as Blair, Morgan, Archbishop, as well as others will be imitated by lessers all the way down to ordinary folk. Memetics. Perhaps the tide's nearly turned.

jonny2mad · Post by **jonny2mad** » 25 Mar 2016, 01:31

http://www.theworldweekly.com/reader/vi ... urope/7253

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 27 Mar 2016, 22:43

My friend wrote: Sorry for my lack of updates, it has taken me a while to process my thoughts and feelings about the situation in ritsona refugee camp. I'm not sure I fully have or will be able to because it is so emotionally conflicting but here goes.
The camp isn't so bad in some ways, the Greek airforce have set it up and are really trying their best. They were only given a few days notice to set up a camp to house 1000 people. The residents have access to water from a tank, a bit of electricity from a generator and 3 very small meals a day. It could be worse, right?
Except nobody wants to be here, their families are in Europe, their children haven't been to school in 3 year, the food isn't what they are used to. In their own countries they had a house, a life, everything they needed. Now they share a tent with other families, they have no privacy, they have no choice in the food they eat or when they can eat it, they have 10 showers to share with 908 other people.
They do have hope, hope that the borders will open, that Europe isn't cruel, that if we volunteers speak to our governments and tell them what is happening then they will open the borders.
We have set up daily meetings with residents do their voices can be heard except we can only deal with the things they don't want to hear, how we can make life more comfortable in the camp, how we can fundraise to try and get them toilets that are more culturally suitable, how we can set up meetings so their voices can be heard except for the very thing they want to talk about. When can they leave the three years of hell and finally be treated like people again, when can their children's go to proper school, when can they start having a life again.
Now, we have to say ' it will be a minimum of 6 months to process your application, except we can't even say how you make that application because nobody knows, soon unhcr might know'
This is so unjust and unfair. All week I have wanted to talk about the few positive this GS that have happened. With the meetings people feel like they have a way to communicate, the children constantly mither me to play football again, we had a sporadic English class that turned into songs from each country. But what does all of this even mean when there is no hope, when the children we play with will become a lost generation with barely any education and when survival by any means is the norm.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 27 Mar 2016, 23:16

Your friend, the people in the camp, and you, all have some adjusting still to do before you regain full contact with reality.

The borders are not going to re-open. At least 90% of these people will never get any closer to northern Europe than they are now.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 28 Mar 2016, 17:17

The cost of immigration.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 56311.html

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 28 Mar 2016, 17:46

All that shows is that we are addicted to unsustainable growth and need to drastically change the way that we run the economy!

Wouldn't you agree that continuous growth is unsustainable, Biff?

careful_eugene · Post by **careful_eugene** » 29 Mar 2016, 11:41

biffvernon wrote:The cost of immigration.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 56311.html

It might be worth reading the comments below, most people don't agree with the article. We have mass immigration because it suits those who employ lots of people for low wages (tory donors etc.). If this wasn't the case you can be sure that a way would quickly be found to halt further immigration and deport those already here.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 29 Mar 2016, 11:58

biffvernon wrote:The cost of immigration.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 56311.html

You have assured me, privately, that you do not post things dishonestly on this forum. This was after I said to you, in another thread, that if only you would stop posting things you know to be untrue, the feud between yourself and a number of other people on this forum would end.

You have on numerous occasions linked to articles making the above claim in one form or another - that immigration is economically beneficial because it helps encourage growth. On each occasion the response from almost everybody on this forum has been to point out that in all other examples, everybody here, including you, understands that the only sustainable system is one that doesn't need growth, and that therefore the argument you're offering is inconsitent or hypocritical, and that you yourself shouldn't believe it.

When pushed, you accept this, and you change your line to something like "well they (the politicians/media) say immigration is good for growth, so they must have an ulterior motive for being anti-immigration."

Regardless of the fact that the above is less than entirely honest in itself, you then consistently, a few months later, repeat the whole exercise, starting with posting something like this.

If you were a family member of mine I'd be concerned at this point that you might be suffering from some sort of dementia. Because if you aren't, then I'm afraid you really are being DISHONEST.

So I will repeat the question that drew the assurance that you don't post dishonestly on this forum: Didn't you parents teach you that telling lies is bad?

Your behaviour goes around in loops of avoiding this issue. Your response to this post will either be

(a) ignore it and/or pretend you didn't read it.
(b) say it is too long and you are too busy.
(c) complain that it is attacking you personally, and use this as a justification for not reading it or responding to it.

Anything but take on board what is being said and stop posting things that are incompatible with what you know to be true, but which do perpetuate a pointless and long-running dispute that marrs this forum.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 29 Mar 2016, 14:20

UE's post sunk to a new low. I don't usually read them but chanced upon this one.

All I did was link to an article in the Independent that seemed relevant to this thread. I did not say whether or not I agreed with it, with some of it, with all of it or none of it. I just linked to it for others' interest and gave it a four word steer to be helpful.

Since it contained the line:

The Treasury’s spending watchdog said cutting inward migration would create “additional fiscal pressures” that would blow George Osborne’s deficit reduction drive off course.

I thought 'The cost of immigration' was the first thing that came into my head. Don't read into my words meaning that does not exist.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 29 Mar 2016, 14:27

biffvernon wrote:UE's post sunk to a new low. I don't usually read them but chanced upon this one.

All I did was link to an article in the Independent that seemed relevant to this thread. I did not say whether or not I agreed with it...

So you link to articles that you "may or may not agree with".

How convenient.

Don't read into my words meaning that does not exist.

This again? You post something that clearly implies you believe X, then when it is challenged, you say "I didn't say I believe X." Where X implies Y and you do believe Y.

Just to make this crystal clear, X is "immigration is good because it boosts economic growth" and Y is "we should allow unlimited immigration." You posted that link because you want to support Y, but X contradicts other things you and everybody else here believes. You are trying to wriggle out of this by claiming you don't necessarily believe X, even though you posted a link claiming X. This is FUNDAMENTALLY DISHONEST, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you.

I have not sunk to a new low. I am merely responding to your continual disingenuous and dishonest tactics on this forum. You have been called out on doing EXACTLY THIS on EXACTLY THIS TOPIC several times before. So why have you done it again? The only conclusion I can come to is that you are quite intentionally trying to cause arguments and foment ill-feeling on this forum.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 29 Mar 2016, 14:52

Also, just to make this crystal clear:

The underlying reason why you are behaving in a disingenuous/dishonest manner on this forum is an internal contradiction in your own belief system which you point blank refused to resolve.

The thing that everybody in this community has in common is a belief that the economic/political/social system we live under is fundamentally unsustainable and that we need to replace it with something that is sustainable. And in fact, this is not something we have a choice about, because unsustainable systems are doomed to failure, and will be brought to an end sooner or later by the laws of nature, regardless of what humans want or do. Presumably you won't disagree with any of that.

But you have some other beliefs that are not directly connected with the need to build a sustainable system. Those beliefs are a load of idealistic goals about how humans ought to behave, and include treating everybody as equals regardless of race or religion, and abolishing international borders. You are obviously free to hold views of that type, but you can't expect everybody else to agree with them, especially if you can't/won't support them with any sort of rational argument and/or they conflict with the need for sustainability we all agree on.

Unfortunately, these two sets of beliefs are already incompatible and, crucially, their incompatibility is getting worse all the time, and destined to get much bigger in the future. In short, we CANNOT build a sustainable system in the UK/Europe, which is the only area over which we, as a society, can exercise any sort of meaningful cultural or political influence, unless we accept that borders have to be policed and population levels have to be controlled.

The arguments on this forum, on this topic, are a direct consequence of this glaring contradiction in your own belief system that you point blank refuse to address. And it comes down to bloody-minded obstinacy. You simply aren't willing to admit your humanitarian ideals are unattainable and in conflict with the reality of the sustainability problem.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 29 Mar 2016, 16:01

Interesting episode of Costing the Earth on Radio 4 just ended. Worth a listen (though whether I agree with anything said on the programme is of little consequence).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b074x9gm

As gates close against migrants entering Europe Tom Heap is in Croatia to examine the wildlife impact of the continent's new borders.

Red deer have been found dying on the razor wire and the vulnerable local population of lynx is now split between Slovenia and Croatia. With a shrunken gene pool the lynx could soon be lost from the region.

From the Austrian Alps, south through the Balkans to Greece the mountains provide a vital habitat for large carnivores like bear and wolf. As new fences rise across the region Europe's peak predators face a bleak future.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 29 Mar 2016, 16:14

So you are going to ignore what I just posted, right?

I could respond to your latest post by pointing out that the current situation is the direct result of allowing unfettered immigration in to Europe, but what would be the point?

snow hope · Post by **snow hope** » 29 Mar 2016, 21:49

Well done UE, your understanding of Biff's shortcomings and concise elaboration of the internal contradiction of his belief system has made it very clear for everybody, with an ounce of sense, to see.

As predicted, Biff chooses to ignore what is said because he has no answer. Again it is plain for all to see.

And as for posting links, that one does not agree with? Who does that apart from Biff and trolls?

Sorry this post is so personal but I for one, am sick and tired of the attempts at moral one-upmanship that pollute this forum left, right and centre, that you have regularly pointed out UE and I stand up and support you in completely in that regard.

It is time somebody sorted this forum out as the active membership keeps declining...

snow hope · Post by **snow hope** » 29 Mar 2016, 21:50

kenneal - lagger wrote:All that shows is that we are addicted to unsustainable growth and need to drastically change the way that we run the economy!

Wouldn't you agree that continuous growth is unsustainable, Biff?

Don't hold your breath Ken.