Greece Watch...

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 16 Jul 2015, 11:40

Latest from Paul Mason

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJtG_fE-TYw

3rdRock · Post by **3rdRock** » 16 Jul 2015, 12:43

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33546352

Eurozone backs €7bn bridge loan

Eurozone ministers have agreed to give Greece a €7bn (£5bn) "bridge" loan from an EU-wide fund to keep its finances afloat until a bailout is approved.

They agreed in a conference call to tap the EU's EFSM emergency fund.

The loan is expected to be confirmed by the European Commission on Friday, when it will be voted on in the EU Council.

Post by **adam2** » 16 Jul 2015, 13:22

Dissent and differing views are fine.
Name calling and personal insults are not acceptable and such posts are liable to deletion without notice or consultation. Posts that quote insults made by others or replies thereto are also liable to be deleted.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 16 Jul 2015, 13:33

johnhemming2 wrote:Their choice was either to co-operate with the Eurozone or to set up their own currency. That has been the case for months.

Rather like the choice of a rape victim, either to co-operate or...

Post by **adam2** » 16 Jul 2015, 16:06

Little John wrote:This man has acted in ways that are considered by many to be scandalous and using his parliamentary privilege to do so. It is entirely fitting and appropriate, then, that such dealings be exposed here and it would be unacceptable if that exposure was censored here. Particularly, given his lack of regards for others in his own actions. Not to mention that fact of some of those links refer to his overtly political actions.

Feel free to argue the point in a thread set up for the purpose.
Approval or otherwise of the views of johnheming2 in general is not really much to do with the Greek crisis.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 16 Jul 2015, 16:07

biffvernon wrote:
johnhemming2 wrote:Their choice was either to co-operate with the Eurozone or to set up their own currency. That has been the case for months.
Rather like the choice of a rape victim, either to co-operate or...

I don't, however, think that changing the law to have independent statistics (for example) should be considered to be similar to being raped.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 16 Jul 2015, 16:14

johnhemming2 wrote: I don't, however, think that changing the law to have independent statistics (for example) should be considered to be similar to being raped.

Statistics are always good (so long as they are not lies or damn lies).

It is curious that people are going for a position that the IMF says won't work.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 16 Jul 2015, 17:03

biffvernon wrote:It is curious that people are going for a position that the IMF says won't work

The politics of any adjustment to the debt due are that it cannot be done only for Greece without a substantial unravelling of the process.

The biggest mistake the Greeks have made in the negotiation is failing to understand the priorities of those on the other side. That is how they got into a situation where they have been basically trussed up like a turkey ...

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 16 Jul 2015, 19:07

Euclide Tsakalotos ‏@EuclideTsakalo 8 minutes ago
@BarackObama Brussels was instructed by you Mr President? probably instructed by Wall Street, to hold together the euro at all costs. Yes ?

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 16 Jul 2015, 21:59

I suppose John must think Jürgen Habermas is another fool or idiot.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... s-habermas

Speaking about the bailout deal for the first time since it was presented on Monday, the philosopher and sociologist said the German chancellor had effectively carried out “an act of punishment” against the leftwing government of Alexis Tsipras.

“I fear that the German government, including its social democratic faction, have gambled away in one night all the political capital that a better Germany had accumulated in half a century,” he told the Guardian. Previous German governments, he said, had displayed “greater political sensitivity and a post-national mentality”.

Habermas, widely considered one of the most influential contemporary European intellectuals, said that by threatening Greece with an exit from the eurozone over the course of the negotiations, Germany had “unashamedly revealed itself as Europe’s chief disciplinarian and for the first time openly made a claim for German hegemony in Europe.”

The outcome of the negotiations between Greece and the other eurozone member states, he said, did “not make sense in economic terms because of the toxic mixture of necessary structural reforms of state and economy with further neoliberal impositions that will completely discourage an exhausted Greek population and kill any impetus to growth.”

Habermas added: “Forcing the Greek government to agree to an economically questionable, predominantly symbolic privatisation fund cannot be understood as anything other an act of punishment against a leftwing government.”

http://www.egs.edu/library/juergen-habermas/biography/

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 16 Jul 2015, 22:17

It is only Varoufakis that I described as an idiot. He has probably been personally responsible for more damage to the Greek economy than any one other inidividual. His gaming over the negotiations did massive damage.

Habermas has another perspective from an ideological integrationalist perspective.

I don't think what he has to say is particularly significant. My own view is that if Germany (and the other 18 nations) had given in to the Greek posturing that the Eurozone would have been finished.

There is a good argument that monetary union requires at least some fiscal union. That would not have allowed the Greeks to go off on one as they have. (including under previous governments.)

It should be noted that in the "showdown" there was Greece. Cyprus, Italy and France and then the rest.

Hollande does not have that much of a record anyway. I don't know enough about Italy to comment. Cyprus is quite Greek. (ignoring Northern Cyprus)

From a philosophical perspective there can be ideological positions that are not founded in a complete understanding of the way things work. Those are quite common and not necessarily invalid, but when they come up against reality there can be real problems. Obsessive Europhilia is one of these.

3rdRock · Post by **3rdRock** » 17 Jul 2015, 07:07

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33560366

German MPs to vote on bailout

The German parliament is to vote on whether to allow negotiations on Greece's €86bn (£60bn) bailout deal.

Germany is one of several eurozone states that must give the green light before the rescue deal can go ahead.

The agreement is expected to be approved, although a number of conservative MPs are refusing to back any more financial help for Greece.

The vote comes hours after the news that Greek banks, shut nearly three weeks ago, will reopen on Monday.

DN65AF · Post by **DN65AF** » 17 Jul 2015, 08:42

johnhemming2 wrote:
My own view is that if Germany (and the other 18 nations) had given in to the Greek posturing that the Eurozone would have been finished.

I think you are correct - which is why I am so enthusiastic for Greece to default 100%, tell Merkel she might as well whistle Dixie if she wants her money back and finish the EU once and for all time.
Why do I hate the EU so much?
Well it comes from working in a sector for over 25 years doing export business across the world. Trying to do any business inside the core EU countries was simply impossible - while doing business in the rest of the world from Japan and China to South and north America was "easy". Yup that is to say while the rest of the world wanted our products we have pretty well nothing installed in the EU - apart from a few in Italy and Sweden. You see, there was always something "incompatible" with our product (Shade of green paint was probably wrong) to make it impossible to use our equipment -if you were a buyer in the EU it seems. They were always carefully never to rule us out on price - it was always some invented "issue".
Single market - my ass - they were just indulging in protectionism. Yes our group HQ made official complaints - fat chance of anything being done.

So the sooner the EU breaks up the better and if the whole place descends into a civil war I will be ready and waiting with the pop corn for payback time.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 17 Jul 2015, 09:43

DN65AF wrote:I think you are correct - which is why I am so enthusiastic for Greece to default 100%, tell Merkel she might as well whistle Dixie if she wants her money back and finish the EU once and for all time.

I don't think default is a problem (for the rest of the EU). It would be giving into the Greeks which would have been a problem.

I cannot comment on your points about the EU common market.

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 17 Jul 2015, 10:51

biffvernon wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... s-habermas

Habermas added: “Forcing the Greek government to agree to an economically questionable, predominantly symbolic privatisation fund cannot be understood as anything other an act of punishment against a leftwing government.”
http://www.egs.edu/library/juergen-habermas/biography/

This has been clear for some time. And if Greece had looked to Russia for money!

It's time for Greece to fúck the "debt"

out of the window.