Replacing democracy

[jonny2mad]

Again, Ludwig, I'm agreement - people are not naturally selfish - hence the need for the program of indoctrination to convince us otherwise. J2M stands as testament to it's efficacy.

What program of indoctrination to convince people they are naturally selfish, if anything I see the opposite a program telling us we are all one humanity and cooperation is wonderful, and people are naturally altruistic .

[Mr. Fox]

C'mon, Jonny... embrace your inner bonobo.

[Mr. Fox]

He's one of a growing number who seem to have taken what they've learned in the military and (perhaps because of what they participated in and saw) used it to apply 'systems thinking' to the sorts of problems we really should be looking at.

That's what I was hoping.

John Robb's another. He literally wrote the book on 'open source warfare', having flown special ops in various South American theaters.

His Global Guerrillas blog is stuffed with keen insights, although now he's now forked onto a blog devoted to Resilient Communities, leaving the more geeky/'rise of the machines' stuff on GG.

All good brainfood.

[jonny2mad]

see even your doing it .

help us Mr 2mad share some food

what you got to share

we haven't we need your help

life's a bitch I'd draw lots or just slaughter the weakest one in your group and eat him if I was you, or you could hunt down a stranger if your strong enough

aren't you going to help

well I done advised you, actually I shouldn't have done that now run along afore I start firing .

[Mr. Fox]

No, Jonny. That's embracing your inner chimp.

[hodson2k9]

see even your doing it .

help us Mr 2mad share some food

what you got to share

we haven't we need your help

life's a bitch I'd draw lots or just slaughter the weakest one in your group and eat him if I was you, or you could hunt down a stranger if your strong enough

aren't you going to help

well I done advised you, actually I shouldn't have done that now run along afore I start firing .

You sure your not a banker? or maybe your in the oil business?

[vtsnowedin]

Humans are not naturally selfish???
Place a few toddlers in a sand box with a few toys. Keep their mothers or Nanny's from interfering at least until the hair pulling begins. Sit back and watch. Learn.

[Mr. Fox]

Here we show that young children’s other-regarding preferences assume a particular form, inequality aversion that develops strongly between the ages of 3 and 8. At age 3–4, the overwhelming majority of children behave selfishly, whereas most children at age 7–8 prefer resource allocations that remove advantageous or disadvantageous inequality.

Nature 454, 1079-1083 (28 August 2008) | doi:10.1038/nature07155; Received 12 March 2008; Accepted 6 June 2008(pdf)
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 07155.html


So how old are you?

[jonny2mad]

Very true vtsnowedin

and we go and interfere with that

and we get the soft silly youth of today

jonny wont share his toy

he scares me

only the strong survive



crying is not doing any good learn to box

The ancient Spartans used to take children off their mothers at 8 and have them fight and steal food and clothes.

I used to steal food off my little nephew every time he ate and now he eats like a fellow who thinks someones going to steal his food he eats fast and covers his plate and is alert , hes 22 and six foot 7, but more than that hes mentally the sort of person who would do well in a gulag fighting for the last cheese sandwich .


its the sort of thing we do in my family

[jonny2mad]

Here we show that young children’s other-regarding preferences assume a particular form, inequality aversion that develops strongly between the ages of 3 and 8. At age 3–4, the overwhelming majority of children behave selfishly, whereas most children at age 7–8 prefer resource allocations that remove advantageous or disadvantageous inequality.

Nature 454, 1079-1083 (28 August 2008) | doi:10.1038/nature07155; Received 12 March 2008; Accepted 6 June 2008(pdf)
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 07155.html


So how old are you?

Poor little devils warped by 4 years of forced altruism

[Ludwig]

Humans are not naturally selfish???
Place a few toddlers in a sand box with a few toys. Keep their mothers or Nanny's from interfering at least until the hair pulling begins. Sit back and watch. Learn.

The children who start the hair-pulling are in a minority. Of course, if it starts and continues unchecked, everyone ends up having to fight in order to assert themselves.

Now, you could argue that this is "natural", in the same way that dogs brought up in puppy farms, removed too early from their mothers' care, and unattended by the owners, fight each other mercilessly for food and are very hard to socialise later in life.

My parents have such a dog, and when their older dog was still alive, the puppy-farm dog, despite otherwise being extremely timid, would go totally mental and bite the older dog's neck. There is no doubt that she would have killed the older dog if she had been given the chance.

This is not, however, how dogs usually behave in the wild, because the nurturing and "canine civilising" process runs a course that is usually referred to as "natural".

Most higher animals train their young. Nature does not just reside in the individual but in the species, and in acquired behaviours passed on from generation to generation. How these behaviours come about is something of a mystery. They can't be simply genetic, otherwise they wouldn't need teaching. Does that mean they're not "natural"?

Of course selfishness is natural, but it is not the only natural instinct.

If human beings were purely selfish, we could only conclude that love and compassion did not exist and were merely words to describe the causes of enlightened self-interest, rather than being emotions. In my view, anyone who thinks all human behaviour comes down to selfishness must lead a pretty impoverished life.

Incidentally, this story ran in the "Guardian" a few weeks ago, about a humpback whale saving a seal from killer whales:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/no ... from-orcas

Of course one can be too sentimental about animals, given that this kind of behaviour is the exception, but this story (among many others) shows suggests that sympathy is a thing in itself and not just a term we use to explain enlightened self-interest.

Some human beings are moved by the sight of the suffering of other human beings, even if they are strangers. There is no genetic advantage to this.

Again, I don't want to come over all new agey - on balance I'm pretty cynical about human motivation. But it is a complex thing.

[jonny2mad]

Your form of training the young is not the only form, the Spartans had a radically different form of child rearing, not everyone brings up their children with notions of universal love and compassion, not everyone in the world thinks thats such a great idea .



What advantage would a spartan upbring give children what sort of positive quality's would the adults have ?

[Mr. Fox]

Poor little devils warped by 4 years of forced altruism

Nothing a couple of hours of TV every day won't fix.

Luckily, the UK average is 2.5!

The children who start the hair-pulling are in a minority. Of course, if it starts and continues unchecked, everyone ends up having to fight in order to assert themselves.

Ah... The Disruptors.

Now, you could argue that this is "natural", in the same way that dogs brought up in puppy farms, removed too early from their mothers' care, and unattended by the owners, fight each other mercilessly for food and are very hard to socialise later in life.

Well put.

Slight tangent, but did you catch that BBC Horizon 'The Secret Life of the Dog'? They make a fair argument that dogs and humans co-evolved, that 'barking' evolved to enable dogs to communicate with humans, rather than other dogs.

No dogs > no pastoralism > no agriculture? Just thought they deserved a mention, since it appears to be at least as much their fault we're in this mess. No doubt they'll claim to have only been following orders.

[Mr. Fox]

Your form of training the young is not the only form, the Spartans had a radically different form of child rearing, not everyone brings up their children with notions of universal love and compassion, not everyone in the world thinks thats such a great idea .



What advantage would a spartan upbring give children what sort of positive quality's would the adults have ?

This... This is for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwFOpYOXBQ0

[Ludwig]

[Deleted post. I stand by what I wrote but I don't want to sour the tone of the forum any further.]