Replacing democracy

[RenewableCandy]

I think UE's system as proposed involves far too few individuals. I mean, how long would it take Murdoch to convince them all that having some extra money is quite nice really, or how long would it take someone even worse to find out where their pretty kids go to school you get the idea.

One of the advantages with the present system is that so many people and entities are involved that it's virtually impossible for one organisation/individual to corrupt all of them simultaneously. Though I grant you Murdoch is giving this challenge a run for its money

[vtsnowedin]

Well UC your council of 5 plus 5 plus 1 seems to not have public support. Perhaps you should pull over a clean sheet of paper and try again. Better luck next time.

[UndercoverElephant]

Well UC your council of 5 plus 5 plus 1 seems to not have public support. Perhaps you should pull over a clean sheet of paper and try again. Better luck next time.

I was not expecting it to be easy to get people onboard.

And please note that it is a thought experiment, not a manifesto. I'm really just trying to clarify exactly what is wrong with democracy.

[UndercoverElephant]

My general view is that life is one problem after another, and that the only real solution is death

No fun along the way?

[kenneal - lagger]

UE - since Prince Charles is a hard-core green why don't you advocate a absolutist green monarchist dictatorship?

Because of the power problems. Dictatorship is just fine, so long as it's the right dictator and not the wrong one. And sooner or later it is guaranteed to be the wrong one.

Do you mean the correct dictator rather than the right one? The right one would be Hitler but the correct one would be Stalin from you left wing point of view!

[vtsnowedin]

Well UC your council of 5 plus 5 plus 1 seems to not have public support. Perhaps you should pull over a clean sheet of paper and try again. Better luck next time.

I was not expecting it to be easy to get people onboard.

And please note that it is a thought experiment, not a manifesto. I'm really just trying to clarify exactly what is wrong with democracy.

Certainly but lets try your next thought or two. We can always come back to this set if some improvements come to mind.
Are you familiar with the New England "town meeting" form of government?

[UndercoverElephant]

Are you familiar with the New England "town meeting" form of government?

Only vaguely.

[mobbsey]

Will there be dancing?

[vtsnowedin]

Are you familiar with the New England "town meeting" form of government?

Only vaguely.

You have an open meeting of the legal voters in the town warned for the first Tuesday in March. Other meetings at other times can be warned if needed. At this meeting the town officers are elected. The list includes:
Selectman Or select-woman three to seven depending on the size of the town.
Lister (Real estate appraiser) three
Delinquent tax collector one
Auditors three
Constable one
Trustee of public money three
Cemetery commissioner five
Trustee of the public library five
Grand Juror one
Town agent (Barrister) one
I have the warning for this years meeting before me in the town report which has just arrived. It warns fifteen articles where article one is to elect a moderator for the meeting, Article five is to elect those officers in the list above whose rotating terms are up and article fourteen is to raise money to pay the indebtedness and current expenses of the town for the ensuing year.
Between meetings the town is run by the selectboard which meets weekly and a town administrator they employ who also happens to be the town treasurer an elected office with a three year term that doesn't happen to be up this year.
This works fine for small towns of under say 10,000 in population but gets unmanageable when more then a few hundred show up and wish to move articles from the floor. Larger towns move to Aldermen/Mayor systems to deal with this.
It would all work better if most of the decisions were not mandated by state and federal law but that is another story.
This system has been worked out over two centuries of trial and error and finding a fairer more effective system will be no small task.

[Mr. Fox]

Anyone for Sortition?

It guarantees that powerful interest groups can have no influence on the outcome; it does not favour people who are good at winning elections such as people who are charismatic, wealthy, well-educated or well-connected; and you cannot buy votes from people so it is impossible to be corrupt.

If Stephen Fry says so, it must be true.

[Mr. Fox]

Apologies, the_lyniezian - you mentioned it back on page 2 ('Randomocracy').

Or we could just go for a benign dictatorship with Stephen Fry as supreme leader.

[Ludwig]

My general view is that life is one problem after another, and that the only real solution is death

No fun along the way?

Nope, I've given up on everything: hope, excitement, love, fun... All bollocks as far as I'm concerned

[2 As and a B]

Remind me never to invite Ludwig to a brainstorming session.

I appreciate that you've laid your model out for criticism UE and I think you've got some useful feedback - safety in numbers, (desire for feeling of) representation of commoners, local democracy and so on.

What I don't understand is the context. To say that the model of government exists free of the considerations for defence and international trade is not a complete situation. Two powerful influences that I have not seen mentioned are business and the media - or seeking of wealth and rhetoric, if you like. These two would exist in any context of human endeavour that involves any stratification of society.

OK, my two pence worth thrown into the ring:

Education. Every kid gets taught in the appropriate way at the appropriate time (rather than strictly by age) and everyone gets a grounding in philosophy. In outline, young kids learn facts, older kids observe, explore and interpret the world around them and those entering adulthood get to think deeply about the big questions. With the result that adults have more interest in pursuing a life of learning - reading factual books rather than watching action movies. This would form a bulwark against rhetoric.

Transparency. All government meetings conducted in public, without tables, etc to hide legs under. All meetings with government to be held in public. All monies and gifts to government to be made public. Whether this could prevent an individual or a group (say the scientists at Exxon) consolidating power in your model, I don't know. Maybe a 24/7 life-cam on each member of government?

[Ludwig]

Remind me never to invite Ludwig to a brainstorming session.

Brainstorming sessions... That's another thing I hate.

[UndercoverElephant]

What I don't understand is the context. To say that the model of government exists free of the considerations for defence and international trade is not a complete situation.

Agreed. I haven't explained the context properly.

What I am trying to do is use a fictional story to illustrate some things about the real world. In order to explore that, I am splitting off some of the problems faced by societies from others. Removing interaction with the outside world (or removing the outside world altogether by placing the events at the polar regions when the rest of planet has been cooked) is a device...and I have stolen it from Aldous Huxley. Huxley's last novel Island is set on a tropical island which has also cut itself off from the rest of the world in order to establish a society which actually works. That society is also governed by a principle of science and mysticism working together, cutting out normal politics. In that story, Pala has no army, and on the last page it is invaded by its oil-hungry neighbour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_%28novel%29

Education. Every kid gets taught in the appropriate way at the appropriate time (rather than strictly by age) and everyone gets a grounding in philosophy. In outline, young kids learn facts, older kids observe, explore and interpret the world around them and those entering adulthood get to think deeply about the big questions. With the result that adults have more interest in pursuing a life of learning - reading factual books rather than watching action movies. This would form a bulwark against rhetoric.

Yes. I also need to think about education systems.

http://www.DODGY TAX AVOIDERS.com/Island-Perennial- ... geNumber=2

On the island, education is biological, spiritual, and deeply psychological. Teachers start with ecology, and gradually "bridge" to every other area of thought - even metaphysics. Although children are given all the time in the world to use their imagination, Pala's teachers "never give children a chance of imagining that anything exists in isolation. Make it plain from the very first that all living is relationship. Show them the relationships in the woods, in the fields, in the ponds and streams, in the village and the country around it. Rub it in."

Transparency. All government meetings conducted in public, without tables, etc to hide legs under. All meetings with government to be held in public. All monies and gifts to government to be made public. Whether this could prevent an individual or a group (say the scientists at Exxon) consolidating power in your model, I don't know. Maybe a 24/7 life-cam on each member of government?

Yes, I have included this in my longer draft. All meetings held in public.