Spain

Adam Polczyk · Post by **Adam Polczyk** » 30 Nov 2010, 10:52

emordnilap wrote:
lulubel wrote:Maybe the strategy should be to realise that growth isn't a strategy any more.
Agreed. I think that makes, oooo, three, possibly four, of us. "A good start is half the work". Not.

CASSE have made a pretty good start for you already. Have you signed up yet?

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 30 Nov 2010, 12:08

Nobody has yet to explain how you can end growth under a financial system of massive debts which require future growth to pay of those debts!

lulubel · Post by **lulubel** » 30 Nov 2010, 13:29

Lord Beria3 wrote:Nobody has yet to explain how you can end growth under a financial system of massive debts which require future growth to pay of those debts!

I think the key is to put an end to the financial system.

The debts aren't real any more than the money that may or may not be paid back is real. They're just numbers in computers around the world.

Money is just a convenient means of bartering for the exchange of energy in the form of goods and services. Growth in the financial system requires a growth in available energy, and that isn't going to happen.

The sooner people realise there is no solution to the financial crisis, the sooner they might start addressing the real problems.

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » 30 Nov 2010, 13:31

This explains it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOzR3UAyXao

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 30 Nov 2010, 14:02

Agreed. But would it be a improvement, the end to the current system?

Look at the Russian Revolution

Cabrone · Post by **Cabrone** » 30 Nov 2010, 15:50

Contagion crisis intensifies; Spain yield soars

The yield on 10-year Spanish government bonds jumped to around 5.63%, strategists said, a day after surging to 5.43%.

Link

Looks to me like the bond markets are money hungry and looking for something to beat up on.

Spain doesn't strike me as being in such a bad financial situation so this could be a big battle. It's got a lot less debt than the UK.

From what I've read on here it does sounds like they need to make some changes to their tax regime + pension entitlements but my guess is they could withstand a lot at the moment.

Maybe I'm being naieve but the question in my mind is why should a small group of uber greedy financiers be allowed to attack a nation state of some 40m people like this?

Wasn't it Karl Marx who said capitalism will eat itself?

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 30 Nov 2010, 16:53

Lord Beria3 wrote:Nobody has yet to explain how you can end growth under a financial system of massive debts which require future growth to pay of those debts!

Someone has yet to explain how nobody could...aah forget it.

Step one: give the gamblers the finger. They bet in the Irish national lottery and won several years in a row. This time, they lost.

I was talked into putting thousands into a pension fund which is now worthless. Do I get my money back? No way, it was more fool me. So why should I pay back someone else's stake?

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 30 Nov 2010, 17:15

Yup. the *ankers, like the rest of us, will have to learn the full implications of the caveat "Things can go down as well as up".

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 30 Nov 2010, 17:24

Aye, I have to say that to myself even as I mentally kick my butt thinking about what I could have done with those thousands.

I've written them off to sordid experience.

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 30 Nov 2010, 19:01

Blimely, worthless? Thats bad... what happened, was it a company pension?

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 30 Nov 2010, 21:00

OK, a tad exaggerated but less than half its value; I stopped contributing soon after I was told it was worth precisely the amount I'd put in - and then was talked into leaving it there; this money 'advisor' said, "You're one of the lucky ones - it hasn't lost anything." Ermm, inflation? Shome return for yearsh of shacrifice, shurely?

Anyway, six months after that and it was half gone. And now? I don't really want to know but I told them to put it into a cash account so it might at least stay in pace with inflation.

I could have bought land with it rather than feeding the vultures. I could have got extra drunk, more often.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 30 Nov 2010, 23:08

Lord Beria3 wrote:Nobody has yet to explain how you can end growth under a financial system of massive debts which require future growth to pay of those debts!

1 + -1 = 0

lulubel · Post by **lulubel** » 01 Dec 2010, 11:50

Lord Beria3 wrote:Agreed. But would it be a improvement, the end to the current system?

Look at the Russian Revolution

I suppose what I really meant was that the current system will end itself when growth becomes totally impossible. It's time for governments to acknowledge that and stop trying to prop it up by paying their debts, and use what money they have for something useful instead, like making their countries more self-sufficient.

I know this is a very simple example, but something along the lines of what I did when I ran out of money:

"Yes, I know I'm late with my loan payment, but it's a choice of paying you or paying the rent. My landlord puts a roof over my head. What do you do for me?"

Jakell · Post by **Jakell** » 01 Dec 2010, 14:22

JohnB wrote:This explains it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOzR3UAyXao

I try to avoid making posts that add nothing to the discussion, such as 'this is brilliant' but,

This is brilliant.

DominicJ · Post by **DominicJ** » 01 Dec 2010, 15:45

Maybe I'm being naieve but the question in my mind is why should a small group of uber greedy financiers be allowed to attack a nation state of some 40m people like this?

Who's attacking Spain?

Spain wants to borrow money, people are demanding higher interest rates than they did a year ago.
In what way is that an "attack".
If Spain doesnt like the price asked, its free to *not* borrow the money and live within its means.