Start of global war after 2012?

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Lord Beria3
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Start of global war after 2012?

Post by Lord Beria3 »

"If the Third World War is fought with nuclear weapons, the fourth will be fought with bows and arrows."

Lord Louis Mountbatton

This guy has written a interesting albeit controversial piece on the possibility of major war after 2012 between major powers. I have some problems with his thesis but it is certainly thought provoking.

http://www.1913intel.com/2008/03/29/the ... r-in-2012/
the probability of nuclear war occurring during the next 10 years is much greater than it has ever been in the past.

We might be able to ignore all of this if it were not for the conflict in the Middle East concerning Israel. Israel’s neighboring enemies are positioning themselves to destroy Israel once and for all. Hezbollah has acquired the ability to strike most of Israel with various kinds of missiles, thanks to Iran. Hamas has also acquired the ability to inflict missile damage on larger parts of Israel. Syria is working diligently on its missiles arsenal which includes chemical weapons. Iran is developing the ability to build nuclear bombs and the means to deliver them.

Effectively, Israel is going to be forced to defend itself with nuclear weapons at some point in the not too distant future. This will most likely occur when some kind of non-conventional weapon is used like a chemical warhead on a Syrian missile. Israel’s nuclear response will result in about 15 Million dead if you include Lebanon, Syria and the Palestinians (West Bank and Gaza.)

Obviously, this will not go over well with much of the world, and America will be blamed.

At this point Russia and China will quietly prepare for nuclear war against America. Preparation will probably take a couple of years - 1 to 4 years. I expect it to take 2 to 3 years. When the war comes it will start around 4AM (EDT) when everybody in America is at home in bed. Russian and Chinese submarines will quietly surround America and launch their missiles. They will take out command and control facilities, key military targets and the civilian leadership. Probably one or two submarine missiles will be used to detonate some nuclear bombs high in the atmosphere in order to generate an EMP. Effectively, most of America will now be without any kind of communication. They will have no idea what’s going on. If they’re not in an underground nuclear bunker already, then they will die if they live near a big city.

Once the submarine missiles and cruise start hitting their targets, ICBMs will be launched from Russia and China. Russian bombers will launch. Other military planes in Russia and China will be repositioned for survival.

Within 30 minutes from the first strike, ICBMs will to detonating all over America. Somewhere around half the U.S. population will die within a few days of this strike. Probably another 25% will die in the next few months.

My best estimate for a nuclear war starting is in years 2012 or 2013. Although the range of years possible is from 2010 to 2018. The 2012 estimate has nothing to do with Nostradamus or the end of Mayan calendar.

I assume that Israel will go to war with Hezbollah and Hamas in the Summer of 2008. Syria and Iran will not join this war according to Israeli intelligence. So it will not nuclear.

I assume that Hezbollah and Hamas will be ready to fight a new war in the Summer of 2010. Syria will join this war. This war will be a missile war with missiles raining down all over Israel. Syria will most likely launch missiles with chemical warheads. Israel’s response will be devastating.

The clocks starts ticking for retaliation on America from the Summer of 2010. How long will it take Russia and China to prepare for this war? At least a year, but probably 2 or 3 years.

In the movies at least some people make into underground nuclear bunkers. In real life that will not happen in the major metropolitan areas. People that don’t live too close to big cities and know what’s going on are going to survive. Other survivors will be lucky due to wind patterns. But most people will just die.
A couple of comments.

1) I accept his basic thesis that we are entering geopolitically unstable times and the chances of regionals war, including nucleur are rising.

2) while Europe is not a 'enemy' of America, it wouldn't risk its cities to protect America in a nucleur strike.

3) i question whether Syria would launch a chemical attack on isreal, it seems extremely unlikely.

4) food, energy and water scarcity are the demonic triplets which will lead to sharpening global tensions in the coming ten years and the rapid de-globalisation of the globalised economy/order.

5) A book i have just read regarding the huge looming issue of water scarcity (and how it affects food production) notes that the geopolitical flashpoints in the next 10 years are South Korea, Burma and India and Pakistan over Kashmire.

They posit a Chinese takeover of water, energy and mineral rich Burma by China, leading to potential war with India which would be diverted by Pakistan (which is being destablised by a growing Taliban...)

They argue that Iran and North Korea could act as geopolitical spoilers, stretching US resources to the limits while China strategically moves in on strategic areas of east Asia.

6) the prospect of a covert financialsed war between China and America are more likely than the hugely riskly nucleur strike, in my opinion.

Backing up my NK thesis, here is a great Asian Times article on Kims war plans...

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/KF12Dg01.html

Kim will wipe out the communications networks of Japan, South Korea and America and exploit the primitiveness of NK to retake SK. If this occurs in a global context of multiple challenges to the USA, the US may not have the troops to protect SK. Anather thing to note is that SK regains control from USA in april 2012 (may or may not be sigificant)
South Korea will reclaim wartime operational control of its forces from the United States as of April 17, 2012, the two countries announced Friday.
http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_ ... 92605.html

What we are seeing in the two countries most likely to directly challenge the US or its close allies (isreal and SK) are the militersation of their domestic politics in possible preparation for war in the coming years.
Today, however, there is a growing divide within the leadership between the reformists who want to lead Iran towards democracy, openness and freedom, and ultra-hardliners who want to take the country back centuries before the revolution, to the time of the Prophet Mohammad.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KH07Ak01.html

and
"The storm of control measures blowing over that country now was started by the power people in North Korea," a Japanese journalist, Jiro Ishimaru, has written. They "are doing everything they can to tighten social order because they see a crisis looming in the maintenance of the system".
With the power of the elite surrounding the Dear Leader "under close scrutiny", said Bechtol, many analysts believe "that the party and the military have consolidated power in the wake of Kim Jong-il's health issues".
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/KH01Dg01.html

I suspect that Kim has agreed to the military hawks demands for preparing for war in return for them agreeing to his sons succession when he dies, with the real power in the hands of the army.
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Ludwig
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Re: Start of global war after 2012?

Post by Ludwig »

Beria3 wrote: This guy has written a interesting albeit controversial piece on the possibility of major war after 2012 between major powers. I have some problems with his thesis but it is certainly thought provoking.

http://www.1913intel.com/2008/03/29/the ... r-in-2012/
--Snip--
A couple of comments.

1) I accept his basic thesis that we are entering geopolitically unstable times and the chances of regionals war, including nucleur are rising.

2) while Europe is not a 'enemy' of America, it wouldn't risk its cities to protect America in a nucleur strike.
Europe is a geopolitical irrelevance. It has few natural resources left and is entirely at the mercy of outside forces.

In particular, mainland Europe is in no position to upset Russia - it depends on it for gas. So will Britain within the next few years. Where that leaves our alliance with America I'm not sure.

Neither America nor Russia needs Europe. While the consumer society persisted, Europe offered markets; post-PO, it will offer nothing.
6) the prospect of a covert financialsed war between China and America are more likely than the hugely riskly nucleur strike, in my opinion.
A nuclear war seems to me unlikely. MAD obtains now as much as ever.

I didn't read the whole article, as it seemed only semi-informed to me; I mean it doesn't even mention oil or gas.
"We're just waiting, looking skyward as the days go down / Someone promised there'd be answers if we stayed around."
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Papillon
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Re: Start of global war after 2012?

Post by Papillon »

Beria3 wrote:"If the Third World War is fought with nuclear weapons, the fourth will be fought with bows and arrows."

Lord Louis Mountbatton
I know a slightly different version:

"If WW3 is fought with nuclear weapons, WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones." Albert Einstein.

Maybe he was a bit more pessimistic :wink:
"Things are now in motion that cannot be undone" - Good Ole Gandalf! :)

"Forests to precede civilizations, deserts to follow" - Francois Rene Chateaubriand
ziggy12345
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Post by ziggy12345 »

WW3 will be fought with vaccinations, Paper masks, stretchers and mass graves.
stumuz
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Post by stumuz »

Where do you get the time to contemplate this stuff?

You are living through the most interesting, fun filled, wealthy and opportunistic times in the history of the world.

It has got sweet FA to do with you!
I was not attempting to censor the discussion, just to move it as it had become very much off-topic - jmb site admin
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Post by ziggy12345 »

stumuz wrote:Where do you get the time to contemplate this stuff?

You are living through the most interesting, fun filled, wealthy and opportunistic times in the history of the world.

It has got sweet FA to do with you!
I think it is everything to do with us. We are the ones that collectively decided to take all the money out of the bank, sell the house and hock the kids and future generations lives and go on a wild party. We then leave the mess to be cleaned up by anybody that survives.

I call that being totally irresponsible

Cheers
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Lord Beria3
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Post by Lord Beria3 »

Where do you get the time to contemplate this stuff?
Don't worry, I enjoy life as well, this is my private interest.

I'm currently writing a thesis on China and peak oil, so my 'job' everyday involves thinking and writing about how peak oil could affect Chinas future. Also, for my own personal perspective, I would like to get a good angle on the likely evolution over the next 10 yrs of the world, from a career and investing point of view, as I intend to (hopefully) make money out of the transition.

Once I finish my thesis I will go back to fogetting about it, apart from the occasional investment/course which may be useful.
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Ludwig
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Post by Ludwig »

Beria3 wrote: Don't worry, I enjoy life as well, this is my private interest.

I'm currently writing a thesis on China and peak oil, so my 'job' everyday involves thinking and writing about how peak oil could affect Chinas future. Also, for my own personal perspective, I would like to get a good angle on the likely evolution over the next 10 yrs of the world, from a career and investing point of view, as I intend to (hopefully) make money out of the transition.
Do you know how money works? Basically, without the prospect of economic growth, it doesn't.

Once I finish my thesis I will go back to fogetting about it, apart from the occasional investment/course which may be useful.
I don't think you will have long in which to forget about Peak Oil. I am reminded of it every day by the simple fact that I can't get a job.
"We're just waiting, looking skyward as the days go down / Someone promised there'd be answers if we stayed around."
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Post by Ludwig »

stumuz wrote:Where do you get the time to contemplate this stuff?

You are living through the most interesting, fun filled, wealthy and opportunistic times in the history of the world.
"Opportunistic" doesn't make sense - do you mean "opportunity-rich"? In which case: no, those times were the late 1980s and the early 2000s.

As for "wealthy" - give it 2 or 3 years.

You are, I feel, deluded.

It has got sweet FA to do with you!
It has if you can't get a job.
"We're just waiting, looking skyward as the days go down / Someone promised there'd be answers if we stayed around."
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Post by biffvernon »

Ludwig wrote:Do you know how money works? Basically, without the prospect of economic growth, it doesn't.
Money as we have come to know it recently perhaps, but that doesn't mean that a steady-state economy that uses money cannot exist. Money has existed in these Isles at least since the Iron Age with lengthy periods of negligible growth..
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Post by Lord Beria3 »

Money can still be made in a economic depression. Just read your history books on great businessmen/financiers...

One of the things we are see is a massive redistribution of resources in a shrinking economy from a indebted middle classes to others in society. There are opporutinites there, career and investment related, for the money smart.

If you can make money or at least ensure you don't lose your money, you will be able to enjoy the opporutinites in the future (albiet more expensive like travel etc)
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Post by clv101 »

Urm, is it 1962 again? Nuclear war? Russian submarines, ICBMs... ooo the scary Chinese! It's just militaristic porn, the demonising of poorly understood foreigners and fawning over military hardware, for the disillusioned men of this world. Of all the things to worry about, to spend ones time thinking about, working for (or against)... the scenario outlined above is not one of them in my opinion. The Russians are human too, no more likely to launch a nuclear missile than you or I. I don’t buy it, I discount the probability of future nuclear war to insignificant probabilities.

Large scale physical war has been left in the 20th century, recognised not to work. How many wars in the last 100 years can anyone name where the initial aggressor ‘won’. By won I mean are in a better situation (re land, resources, geopolitical influence etc) the following year than they were the previous year? Not many!
Last edited by clv101 on 10 Aug 2009, 10:57, edited 2 times in total.
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Ludwig
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Post by Ludwig »

biffvernon wrote:
Ludwig wrote:Do you know how money works? Basically, without the prospect of economic growth, it doesn't.
Money as we have come to know it recently perhaps, but that doesn't mean that a steady-state economy that uses money cannot exist. Money has existed in these Isles at least since the Iron Age with lengthy periods of negligible growth..
The problem with a steady-state economy is that one person's profit is always another person's loss. Unless the exchange of services results in an exact evening-out of the distribution of money, money gets concentrated in a few people's hands, everyone else is impoverished, and the whole system collapses. So, ironically, a steady state economy is just as unsustainable as an exponentially growing economy.

Besides, negligible growth isn't the same as chronic and accelerating contraction, which is what we are faced with.

Maybe, as Douglas Adams suggests, we should never have left the trees...
"We're just waiting, looking skyward as the days go down / Someone promised there'd be answers if we stayed around."
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Post by Ludwig »

Beria3 wrote:Money can still be made in a economic depression. Just read your history books on great businessmen/financiers...

One of the things we are see is a massive redistribution of resources in a shrinking economy from a indebted middle classes to others in society.
If by "resources" you mean money: no, that's not what's happening. Money is simply disappearing and being replaced with the collateral of the debts that created it.

In some cases, there IS no physical collateral: the debt IS the collateral, the lender's asset. Such a debt can only ever be repaid in an expanding economy.

If a bank gives a loan, it's natural to think of it as "real" new money, because the debtor can buy things with it. But in terms of the world's balance sheets, it isn't "real" new money, because it's balanced by the debt.
If you can make money or at least ensure you don't lose your money, you will be able to enjoy the opporutinites in the future (albiet more expensive like travel etc)
I think you are counting on some degree of "business as usual", which I don't believe is possible. I think there is a good chance of the whole money system collapsing within the next 5 years, to be replaced with what, I don't know.
"We're just waiting, looking skyward as the days go down / Someone promised there'd be answers if we stayed around."
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Post by emordnilap »

What is going to happen when the price of oil plunges?
Interesting question indeed.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
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