Replacing democracy

[Mr. Fox]

Your form of training the young is not the only form, the Spartans had a radically different form of child rearing, not everyone brings up their children with notions of universal love and compassion, not everyone in the world thinks thats such a great idea .



What advantage would a spartan upbring give children what sort of positive quality's would the adults have ?

This... This is for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwFOpYOXBQ0

hmm So 300 is bad because it celebrates heterosexuality and white people, but white people need to feel more guilt .... about killing red Indians or enslaving black people ....and the films bad because one of the bad guys is a humpback and thats against the disabled ......and the Spartans getting rid of disabled baby's was a bad thing, and is somehow linked to war and white heterosexual people especially white males again .

Glad you enjoyed it, Jonny.

Now go look up 'pederasty'.

[RenewableCandy]

The Spartans, though strong as individuals, died out in fairly short order.

[jonny2mad]

pederasty in Sparta

Xenophon in his Constitution of the Lacedaimonians says that the relationship among Spartan man and boys "were opposed to" pederasty, that man should make "ideal friends" out of boys, and if that the man was sexually attracted to the boy, it was considered "an abomination" tantamount to incest.

Plutarch also describes the relationships as chaste, and states that it was as unthinkable for a lover to sexually consummate a relationship with his beloved as for a father to do so with his own son. Aelian relates that in Sparta, for a man to not have a youth for a lover was considered a deficiency in character, and he was punished for not making another as good as he was himself, despite his excellence.

But Aelian also says that if any couple succumbed to temptation and indulged in carnal relations, they would have to redeem the affront to the honor of Sparta by either going into exile or taking their own lives.

So you have three ancient writers saying a sexual relationship between men and boys was not well thought of

[hodson2k9]

I used to steal food off my little nephew every time he ate and now he eats like a fellow who thinks someones going to steal his food he eats fast and covers his plate and is alert , hes 22 and six foot 7, but more than that hes mentally the sort of person who would do well in a gulag fighting for the last cheese sandwich .

Presumably he also hates your guts and would do anything to get his own back if the opportunity arose.

its the sort of thing we do in my family

Hm. Well. Not in mine or in most families I know. I guess it's hard to escape one's upbringing.

Actually my nephews very fond of me he knew why I was doing it , my father used to do similar things with me as a child and brought me and my sister up with the same attitudes I thought the world of him .

If you have learned something in your life you try to pass on those lessons, thats not cruelty, cruelty is where you bring up a child and don't teach him things that will keep him alive

When you was a baby did you say to your dad "dad can you raise me like a spartan, can you raise me to be a violent thug"? Obviously not, therefore your father took it upon himself to, i presume anyway, beat you maybe? Or get you to fight all the time, get you used to pain etc (im just guessing here, correct me if im wrong). Now if he did do any of the above, then to me thats cruelty.

My mates dad use to beat his kids black and blue all the time, which is pretty cruel. Now if he would of said "im toughening them up, getting them used to the world so they have a better chance of staying alive" would that make it ok? Would that mean he wasnt being cruel? Of course not, he would still be a cruel bully, except if he said that he would be a cruel bully with a lame and cowardry excuse.

Also there are plenty of other non-violent ways you can teach children how to stay alive.

I asked what sort of quality's would a spartan upbringing give you , I would think incredible quality's of endurance, you would likely give far more effort, given equal numbers Spartans generally won even out numbered they generally won .

Seriously we live in a tottally different time, get over the spartans, if they were that brilliant they would still be around, go watch 300 or something.

One more question, probably a stupid one, but you got any kids?

[Mr. Fox]

pederasty in Sparta

Oh Noes! Wikiquotes! Didn't you like the bit above the bit you've quoted?

Sparta, a Dorian polis, is thought to be the first city to practice athletic nudity, and one of the first to formalize pederasty.[70] The Spartans believed that the love of an older, accomplished aristocrat for an adolescent was essential to his formation as a free citizen. The agoge, the education of the ruling class, was thus founded on pederastic relationships required of each citizen.[71] The lover was responsible for the boy's training. Pederasty and military training were intimately connected in Sparta, as in many other cities.

OK, if not the pederasty, exactly which aspects of Spartan childrearing is it that you find most, er... 'attractive'?

Being whipped to death whilst trying to steal cheese?

[jonny2mad]

pederasty in Sparta

Oh Noes! Wikiquotes! Didn't you like the bit above the bit you've quoted?

Sparta, a Dorian polis, is thought to be the first city to practice athletic nudity, and one of the first to formalize pederasty.[70] The Spartans believed that the love of an older, accomplished aristocrat for an adolescent was essential to his formation as a free citizen. The agoge, the education of the ruling class, was thus founded on pederastic relationships required of each citizen.[71] The lover was responsible for the boy's training. Pederasty and military training were intimately connected in Sparta, as in many other cities.

OK, if not the pederasty, exactly which aspects of Spartan childrearing is it that you find most, er... 'attractive'?

Being whipped to death whilst trying to steal cheese?

I didn't quote the first paragraph about pederasty in Sparta because the important point was what it meant by pederasty.

Being whipped to death for failing to successfully steal a cheese would give you great motivation to be a successful cheese stealer .... which was the whole point

They wanted to bring up people who would be really good at sneaking about in warfare .

[jonny2mad]

Presumably he also hates your guts and would do anything to get his own back if the opportunity arose.
Hm. Well. Not in mine or in most families I know. I guess it's hard to escape one's upbringing.

Actually my nephews very fond of me he knew why I was doing it , my father used to do similar things with me as a child and brought me and my sister up with the same attitudes I thought the world of him .

If you have learned something in your life you try to pass on those lessons, thats not cruelty, cruelty is where you bring up a child and don't teach him things that will keep him alive

When you was a baby did you say to your dad "dad can you raise me like a spartan, can you raise me to be a violent thug"? Obviously not, therefore your father took it upon himself to, i presume anyway, beat you maybe? Or get you to fight all the time, get you used to pain etc (im just guessing here, correct me if im wrong). Now if he did do any of the above, then to me thats cruelty.

My mates dad use to beat his kids black and blue all the time, which is pretty cruel. Now if he would of said "im toughening them up, getting them used to the world so they have a better chance of staying alive" would that make it ok? Would that mean he wasnt being cruel? Of course not, he would still be a cruel bully, except if he said that he would be a cruel bully with a lame and cowardry excuse.

Also there are plenty of other non-violent ways you can teach children how to stay alive.

I asked what sort of quality's would a spartan upbringing give you , I would think incredible quality's of endurance, you would likely give far more effort, given equal numbers Spartans generally won even out numbered they generally won .

Seriously we live in a tottally different time, get over the spartans, if they were that brilliant they would still be around, go watch 300 or something.

One more question, probably a stupid one, but you got any kids?

No he didn't beat me it was mainly things to increase endurance, and the general attitude ,we live in a different time but this time isn't one of universal love and harmony and its going to get a hell of a lot tougher

[Mr. Fox]

They wanted to bring up people who would be really good at sneaking about in warfare .

OK, thanks.

A few questions:

How did rearing their young (no, not in THAT way. ) to be 'sneaky cheese thieves' (aggressive, aquisative, etc) ultimately pan out for them?

How do you think being raised in such a manner ultimately pans out for individuals in the real world, today?

And does that differ when you think in terms of the real world tomorrow?

[hodson2k9]

Actually my nephews very fond of me he knew why I was doing it , my father used to do similar things with me as a child and brought me and my sister up with the same attitudes I thought the world of him .

If you have learned something in your life you try to pass on those lessons, thats not cruelty, cruelty is where you bring up a child and don't teach him things that will keep him alive

When you was a baby did you say to your dad "dad can you raise me like a spartan, can you raise me to be a violent thug"? Obviously not, therefore your father took it upon himself to, i presume anyway, beat you maybe? Or get you to fight all the time, get you used to pain etc (im just guessing here, correct me if im wrong). Now if he did do any of the above, then to me thats cruelty.

My mates dad use to beat his kids black and blue all the time, which is pretty cruel. Now if he would of said "im toughening them up, getting them used to the world so they have a better chance of staying alive" would that make it ok? Would that mean he wasnt being cruel? Of course not, he would still be a cruel bully, except if he said that he would be a cruel bully with a lame and cowardry excuse.

Also there are plenty of other non-violent ways you can teach children how to stay alive.

I asked what sort of quality's would a spartan upbringing give you , I would think incredible quality's of endurance, you would likely give far more effort, given equal numbers Spartans generally won even out numbered they generally won .

Seriously we live in a tottally different time, get over the spartans, if they were that brilliant they would still be around, go watch 300 or something.

One more question, probably a stupid one, but you got any kids?

No he didn't beat me it was mainly things to increase endurance, and the general attitude ,we live in a different time but this time isn't one of universal love and harmony and its going to get a hell of a lot tougher

Yes because of people like you, however there is still plenty of love and harmony in our current time. I see it everyday, i even see it on this board.

Yes it may get tougher but i wont be changing who i am or raising my child to be a violent bully. To be fair if a post PO world is going to be full of violent spartan loving people (you obviously think the only people who will survive are violent self-interested people) then i would rather me and my family wernt there.

[jonny2mad]

Well they eventually died out or morphed into something else as did most society's .

I think for Spartans being good cheese stealer's was most likely pretty useful ....most likely they got fine cheese

aggressive, acquisitive well you could ask how being whomped by the Spartans and made into a slave felt, how did that work out for them.

If pacifism works so well why do we have a army, most of the worlds best land and resources are controlled by people whose ancestors fought for it or have fought to defend it .

When you stop defending your territory you end up losing it


How do I think being brought up a successful cheese thief pans out

I think it can pan out pretty well (we are descendent's of successful cheese thieves ), and its likely to do mighty well in the future.

[jonny2mad]

then i would rather me and my family wernt there

The number of people on this board who keep saying this is amazing.

[hodson2k9]

then i would rather me and my family wernt there

The number of people on this board who keep saying this is amazing.

why is it amazing? Just shows that violent bullies are of a minority.

[Lord Beria3]

The idea of a green absolutist monarchy isn't entirely in jest.

I actually think that if we revert to a post-industialised slow tech world with little of the hi-tech stuff we take for granted now, land will be the great asset value.

Barring a land/political revolution by the lower classes, the landowning upper classes will dominate wealth and power in this new era. For long periods, until the Industrial Revolution the masses accepted the idea of a divine monarchy, it would not surprise me if we revert to something similar.

Maybe it will be a green/nationalistic idealogy where the Monarchy with its 'natural' relationship to the people and land has a inherit right to power over the 'unnatural' old elites who raped the land of its resources.

[Mr. Fox]

..they .. died out..

How do I think being brought up a successful cheese thief pans out[?]

I think it can pan out pretty well (we are descendent's of successful cheese thieves ), and its likely to do mighty well in the future.

The thing is, that's not what the science appears to be telling us.

Starting with Keser and van Winden (2000) and Fischbacher et al. (2001), economic research has pointed out the role of conditional cooperation. Agents who follow this behavioral pattern condition their cooperation on the cooperativeness of others respectively on their beliefs about others’ behavior – they “are willing to contribute the more to a public good, the more others contribute” (Fischbacher et al., 2001, p.397). There is now a solid body of empirical evidence from lab experiments as well as from field studies, which documents the prevalence of conditional cooperation.1

Free Riders = Cheese Thieves (fail)

Unconditional Cooperators = Hippies (fail)

Conditional Cooperators = Pretty much Everyone Else (win)

Just shows that violent bullies are of a minority.

You can steal cheese from the hippies, but the rest of us will soon get you.

[jonny2mad]

The Spartans cooperated they made alliances, so did our ancestors they also conquered and exploited lots of the world