Eyjafjallajokull volcano

Keela · Post by **Keela** » 22 Apr 2010, 08:05

Good find.... the article makes a lot of sense.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 22 Apr 2010, 08:34

JohnB wrote:
biffvernon wrote:Why do folk always blame the weathermen? It was the engine manufacturers (what do they know?) that imposed the any ash = no fly condition on their products.
Shame they don't design engines that can cope with ash, or fit sensors to detect it, as it's not an entirely unexpected problem. On the other hand, it's a good thing they don't, as lots of people would have missed out on some nice peaceful days!

I think there's something pretty fundamental to the nature of a jet engine that it requires large volumes of clean air. If the air contains any solid that can melt at jet engine operating temperatures there is a potential problem.

Andy Hunt · Post by **Andy Hunt** » 22 Apr 2010, 08:54

RogueMale wrote:I found this amusing: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opi ... 71418.html.

First class!!!

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 22 Apr 2010, 09:47

kenneal wrote:
RogueMale wrote:I found this amusing: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opi ... 71418.html.
Great, RM.

Now the airlines are asking us to bail them out. Why should the permanently grounded masses bail out the temporarily grounded few?

We have Ryanair telling people, who they sold tickets to at silly prices, that they can't have their legal redress of food and accommodation because they bought their tickets at silly prices. Tickets should be priced to cover any eventuality and allow the company to make a pocket. Ryanair took a gamble to fill their planes, lost their gamble and so should be out of profit. I hope some bright lawyer (hate, spit, spit, , almost as bad as *ankers) starts a class action.

If you leave these shores you should do so at your own risk to an extent. These stranded people were never at risk or in danger, so why should you and I subsidise their travel?

Good poem there and an even better post from kenneal.

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » 22 Apr 2010, 11:08

biffvernon wrote:I think there's something pretty fundamental to the nature of a jet engine that it requires large volumes of clean air. If the air contains any solid that can melt at jet engine operating temperatures there is a potential problem.

In which case the operators should plan for the occasional interruption to the service when clean air isn't available, and not moan about it when it happens. Or change to a different technology that works all the time, if possible.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 22 Apr 2010, 13:36

Yeah but it's hard to plan for an event that happens so rarely. This is the first volcanic cloud to pass over Europe since the invention of the jet engine.

Sometimes we just have to shrug our shoulders and say "Stuff happens" rather than rush out on a scapegoat hunt.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 22 Apr 2010, 22:08

Training flights on RAF Typhoons in Lincolnshire have been suspended after ash deposits were found in the engines of four aircraft.
The fleet is being checked at its base in Coningsby, Lincolnshire.
An RAF spokesman said the Typhoons were "very high performance jets" so staff were "just being extra cautious".
The move comes amid recriminations over the costs of a six-day airspace shutdown caused by volcanic ash drifting south from Iceland.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8637978.stm

There hasn't been any flying at the Donna Nook RAF range near me for a week. There does seem to be some sense to the idea that any volcanic ash, which has a lower melting point that the temperatures found in some parts of a jet engine, is going to do damage.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 22 Apr 2010, 22:26

biffvernon wrote:
Training flights on RAF Typhoons in Lincolnshire have been suspended after ash deposits were found in the engines of four aircraft.
The fleet is being checked at its base in Coningsby, Lincolnshire.
An RAF spokesman said the Typhoons were "very high performance jets" so staff were "just being extra cautious".
The move comes amid recriminations over the costs of a six-day airspace shutdown caused by volcanic ash drifting south from Iceland.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8637978.stm

There hasn't been any flying at the Donna Nook RAF range near me for a week. There does seem to be some sense to the idea that any volcanic ash, which has a lower melting point that the temperatures found in some parts of a jet engine, is going to do damage.

Any buildup of glass deposits inside the engine will make it less efficient and increase fuel consumption. For the commercial airlines, this becomes a cost/benefit calculation. For the RAF, it is a no-brainer to leave the planes on the ground until all the ash has gone.

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » 22 Apr 2010, 23:22

Good article by Rob Hopkins
http://transitionculture.org/2010/04/21 ... e-up-call/

Andy Hunt · Post by **Andy Hunt** » 23 Apr 2010, 11:35

biffvernon wrote:
Training flights on RAF Typhoons in Lincolnshire have been suspended after ash deposits were found in the engines of four aircraft.
The fleet is being checked at its base in Coningsby, Lincolnshire.
An RAF spokesman said the Typhoons were "very high performance jets" so staff were "just being extra cautious".
The move comes amid recriminations over the costs of a six-day airspace shutdown caused by volcanic ash drifting south from Iceland.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8637978.stm

There hasn't been any flying at the Donna Nook RAF range near me for a week. There does seem to be some sense to the idea that any volcanic ash, which has a lower melting point that the temperatures found in some parts of a jet engine, is going to do damage.

This really makes me wonder just how safe it really is up there. The quantities of ash up there at the moment might not mean instant death for any jet engine flying through it, but the cumulative effect might mean that it takes a couple of weeks for problems to start to show themselves.

It would take only one crash to highlight this - and where would we go from there? It could be the final nail in the coffin of the cheap airline industry, and force a move to airships etc.

A Black Swan indeed. Funny how things go, innit.

Pip · Post by **Pip** » 23 Apr 2010, 11:51

I strongly doubt one crash, however tragic, would end budget airline travel or move us to airships. There's a whole myriad of things that can, and sometimes sadly do cause harm to aircraft, and while we do our best to mitigate them, none have stopped people flying so far. This is just another one to add to the list.

Andy Hunt · Post by **Andy Hunt** » 23 Apr 2010, 12:36

Pip wrote:I strongly doubt one crash, however tragic, would end budget airline travel or move us to airships. There's a whole myriad of things that can, and sometimes sadly do cause harm to aircraft, and while we do our best to mitigate them, none have stopped people flying so far. This is just another one to add to the list.

Well you might be right. But I can imagine a scenario where after a crash, it is discovered that all jets have ash deposits in their engines, and that this will continue to build even with relatively low levels of ash in the atmosphere. I am just wondering how that situation could be dealt with to restore people's confidence in air travel. It might be difficult, and very expensive.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 23 Apr 2010, 13:46

The compensation payments are going to put prices up, especially to ultra cheap seats. someone's going to have to pay, and it won't be the owners or shareholders. If the ash carries on and gets worse there could be more flight bans that would effect prices further.

Lobby your MP to make sure there is no bailout for airlines. Put the costs onto those who fly not on the majority who don't.

Does anyone know if low level ash deposition in jet engines breaks off or accumulates? If it breaks off and is lost there won't be a problem but if it builds over time there would be significant maintenance costs. these would agian hit seat prices.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 23 Apr 2010, 21:46

The weather has changed completely now and the ash is heading for the North Pole where, when it settles, it will dirty the ice, decreasing albedo and hastening the summer melt.

The peace and tranquillity have been shattered byt the RAF resuming bombing of my local beach and the blue skies are once again vandalised by white lines drawn by those flying from Amsterdam to New York.

I guess there is just not enough experience of jet engines in ash clouds for the engineers to really know just how much damage is likely. Apparently the 747 that lost all four engines and restarted them after the longest unscheduled glide ever is the very same plane that was scrapped and some of the aluminium recast for the 10:10 badges! Serendipity.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 23 Apr 2010, 21:56

It's mostly steam coming out at the moment...