700,000+ Electric bikes sold vs. 11,500 Electric cars

lancasterlad · Post by **lancasterlad** » 15 Oct 2012, 08:47

Last year 310,000 e-bikes were sold in Germany, a 55% year-on-year rise. In all more than 700,000 were sold in western Europe. The equivalent figure for electric cars, long touted as the low-carbon transport of the future, was just over 11,500, even with the millions spent on subsidies and on-street charging points.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ ... sfeed=true

stumuzz · Post by **stumuzz** » 15 Oct 2012, 09:31

Good article and a positive view on what's possible.

Does anyone think there is any milage ('scuse the pun) in making a triple hybrid moped/scooter? Fashioned on the lightweight peddle scooters of the 70's but with a battery that could be charged by going downhill, a bit of peddling on the flat (if you're feeling fit) and an ultra efficient engine to give a little boost when needed.

stumuzz · Post by **stumuzz** » 15 Oct 2012, 09:33

Another idea.

Is it possible to retrofit a small motor to a bike.

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 15 Oct 2012, 09:46

Electric conversions for standard bikes widely available today. 50 years ago you could buy a small single cyclinder petrol engine to strap onto a bike with a frction drive onto the tyre. (Sat on top of rear tyre bolted to frame). My dad gave me one as a restoration project whan I was young. Never got it working.

Not sure if they are still legal.

edit

http://www.transformercycles.com/

Post by **adam2** » 15 Oct 2012, 10:24

stumuzz wrote:Good article and a positive view on what's possible.

Does anyone think there is any milage ('scuse the pun) in making a triple hybrid moped/scooter? Fashioned on the lightweight peddle scooters of the 70's but with a battery that could be charged by going downhill, a bit of peddling on the flat (if you're feeling fit) and an ultra efficient engine to give a little boost when needed.

I rather doubt it.
What you propose is certainly possible, but would probaly add too much weight, cost and complication to what is intended to be a cheap, simple and lightweight vehicle.
Also if fitted with a petrol engine, a hard hat, driving licence, and insurance would be required, which might put people off.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 15 Oct 2012, 10:27

RalphW wrote:Electric conversions for standard bikes widely available today. 50 years ago you could buy a small single cyclinder petrol engine to strap onto a bike with a frction drive onto the tyre. (Sat on top of rear tyre bolted to frame). My dad gave me one as a restoration project whan I was young. Never got it working.

Not sure if they are still legal.

edit

http://www.transformercycles.com/

I wonder how a 25cc, 2-stroke would match up in terms of power consumption compared to an electric bike of equivalent speed. Into that calculation one would need to include the energy losses incurred at the electrical power station. I once made a 25cc brush-cutter engine assisted bicycle just to see if it could be done. The drive system was via a roller on the rear wheel, so it was pretty inefficient. Nevertheless, I could get 10 miles per hour out of it and, at that speed, it used to give me nearly a 100 miles per gallon without pedal assistance and well over if I pedal assisted.

I just wonder if electric bikes are really that much more efficient when everything is taken in account and that the real reason they are becoming popular is not because they are more efficient but because, in this very low-end powered-bike market, they are the only legally available show in town since, as you say, low-end petrol-powered bicycles are illegal to take on the public highway. Or, at least, they are extremely difficult to make legal and so mass-manufacturers simply don't bother trying.

Post by **adam2** » 15 Oct 2012, 10:58

A lightweight high efficiency petrol powered two wheeler has a lot to commend it, in view of the saving of effort and modest petrol used.

What is needed is a true moped on which the pedals are a realistic means of propulsion. (most mopeds were not actually intended to be moved by the pedals which were purely a legal requirement to avoid the machine being, in law, a motorbike)

AFAIK some lightweight petrol scooters can get 2oo miles to the gallon, something similar but with a smaller engine and pedals could be worthwhile.
Size the engine so as to achieve say 30 MPH on the level, and supplement this by pedalling for acceleration and ascending inclines.

Such frugal machines would be viable even with petrol at 10 times todays price, and for the modest amounts needed, biofuels would be viable without taking up too much land.

Petrol though widely used is somwhat dangerous stuff, especialy in/on lighweight vehicles.
There would seem to be a market for very small diesel engines if these could be made efficient and afordable.

I understand that the US navy are funding research into small high efficiency diesels. They want to make all USA warships "petrol free" on account of the fire risks.
At present petrol has to be carried on warships for boat engines and for any motorbikes and generators or water pumps that may be needed for operations ashore.

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 15 Oct 2012, 11:42

The key difference with electric cycles is their low weight and embedded energy. They are relatively low range (half that of current electric cars) but less than 5% of the cost and half or less the average travel speed (on the open road). A bicycle has lousy aerodynamics, a faired recumbent trike is a lot better and can be bought with electric assist. These have a top speed of about 30 mph for the reasonably fit and range is a matter of endurance. They do not fit practically in the UK road network being neither fish nor fowl, but they are the next logiacl step up in the European market. They have yet to break out into mass production making them a poor second to a petrol scooter at present.

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 15 Oct 2012, 15:57

An electric bike with a sidecar...I can see that catching on

Catweazle · Post by **Catweazle** » 15 Oct 2012, 19:07

I think an electric tricycle is the way to go. Batteries could be low down near the rear axle for stability, with some useful load carrying space above.

The next stage might be a hybrid tricycle, with a small fixed speed four-stroke engine available to charge the battery in emergencies or for extended journeys.

I recently bought a 4-stroke Honda brushcutter, with a very compact 35cc engine. There is a 25cc version available too.

Ballard · Post by **Ballard** » 15 Oct 2012, 20:21

adam2 wrote:A lightweight high efficiency petrol powered two wheeler has a lot to commend it, in view of the saving of effort and modest petrol used.

What is needed is a true moped on which the pedals are a realistic means of propulsion. (most mopeds were not actually intended to be moved by the pedals which were purely a legal requirement to avoid the machine being, in law, a motorbike)

AFAIK some lightweight petrol scooters can get 2oo miles to the gallon, something similar but with a smaller engine and pedals could be worthwhile.
Size the engine so as to achieve say 30 MPH on the level, and supplement this by pedalling for acceleration and ascending inclines.

Such frugal machines would be viable even with petrol at 10 times todays price, and for the modest amounts needed, biofuels would be viable without taking up too much land.

I remember these from France in the 1970's...

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=veloso ... 58&bih=476

No one wore a helmet, and I remember seeing chickens being carried to market on one.

Snail · Post by **Snail** » 15 Oct 2012, 21:13

Those velosolex's look

. Couple being sold on Ebay (1 with year's mot and 1 that needs fixed up). Seems to be classed same as a motorcycle so helmet, mot, insurance. Still cool tho, and far lighter seemingly than most electric bikes. Never seen one before.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 15 Oct 2012, 21:18

Snail wrote:Those velosolex's look . Couple being sold on Ebay (1 with year's mot and 1 that needs fixed up). Seems to be classed same as a motorcycle so helmet, mot, insurance. Still cool tho, and far lighter seemingly than most electric bikes. Never seen one before.

All you need for one of those is a moped licence. Also, if it's an old one you don't need an MOT or tax any more.

Moped provisional licences (from the DVLA site)

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Le ... G_10016249

You can only hold a provisional moped licence if you are at least 16 years old. It entitles you to ride a moped on the road as a learner with L-plates (D-plates in Wales) but you must not carry a pillion passenger or go on a motorway.

Your provisional licence is only valid when you have the DL 196 certificate issued on completion of compulsory basic training (CBT) by an approved training body (ATB).

A CBT certificate obtained on a moped is also valid for motorcycles once the rider has reached the age of 17 years and has the necessary licence.

If you want to ride a moped on the road without displaying L-plates you must take and pass a theory and practical driving test.

If you have a car licence...

If you obtained your full car licence before 1 February 2001 you are automatically entitled to ride a moped without L-plates (D-plates in Wales).

If you obtained a full car licence after 1 February 2001 you must first complete a CBT course and obtain a DL 196 certificate to validate your entitlement.

ujoni08 · Post by **ujoni08** » 15 Oct 2012, 21:26

I do like the idea of an electrically assisted bicycle. Something like the Ultra Motor A2B, though it's not cheap at £2000:

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 16 Oct 2012, 08:02

£2000 will buy this kit

http://dutchbikes.nl/dutchrecumbenttrik ... nttrikekit

Electric assist can be added.

also here

http://www.alleweder.eu/