London bombs, peak oil, and ID cards

Post by **mikepepler** » 07 Jul 2005, 15:32

Will the government use the London bomb attacks to force through ID cards?

Some people think that the government wants ID cards in place before peak oil so that it has a means of controlling the population in a time of social unreset. Will they use these terrorist attacks as a means of forcing ID cards through, in the same way that the US used 9/11 to force through legislation which restricted freedom?

GD · Post by GD » 07 Jul 2005, 15:50

No doubt in my mind.

greenbean · Post by **greenbean** » 07 Jul 2005, 15:58

In the commons this morning, the Tories threw all their support to the government 'on this issue'. The dems are too few to stand against them, and even doing so might get one labelled 'traitor', 'aiding the enemy'. I may have missed some subtlety of politics, but it will be far easier tomorrow than it was yesterday.

hatchelt · Post by **hatchelt** » 07 Jul 2005, 16:31

i think this could make the cards become much more advanced...your id card could have some sort of 'top-up' travel card option. so instead of getting a weekly bus pass, you'd just charge it to your id card.
and if you wanna drive in london (or any other city before long), you'd need to 'bolt-on'(i love these buzz words) the congestion/permission charge to your card.
and a little later, if you wanna buy fuel, your card will be there with you! you'll have a set limit as to how much fuel you can buy per month/week/day...but don't worry, your id card will stop you getting too much!
wow, our whole lives on a card...life will be ever so convenient...

Post by **clv101** » 07 Jul 2005, 18:58

It's just terrible that things like this happen but think it's also very important to keep things in perspective. Thankfully terrorist activity like this is incredibly rare despite being relatively easy to perpetrate and almost imposable to prevent.

I think this event will be blown out of all proportion in the media, it will strengthen the politics of fear, will bolster the pro-ID card lobby etc.

GD · Post by GD » 08 Jul 2005, 12:52

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4663155.stm

Identity cards would not have stopped the London bombings which killed more than 50 people and injured many more, Charles Clarke has said.

But the home secretary said on balance he believed ID cards would help rather than hinder the ability to deal with particular terrorist threats.

He also suggested that in future civil liberties might have to be curtailed.

wtf????

I'll post some more later...

GD · Post by GD » 08 Jul 2005, 19:44

Right here it finally is...

The info in this post is gathered from an editorial in PC Plus magazine (of all places) issue 232 - which also focuses on whether the ID card scheme is "yet another [govt] IT disaster waiting to happen?"

2003 - 1st public consultation on ID cards:
Home Office claims 60% respondents to be Pro ID cards.
This discounted 4800 against responses due to them being the work of "an organised opposition campaign" because they came from the website stand.org.uk .
This meant the actual total was more than 10,000 responses, with %78 against.

ICM poll, Dec 2004 responded:
ID cards a very good idea: 29%
ID cards a good idea: 52%

However, this support is founded on these beliefs:
ID cards fight terrorism (56% agree).
ID cards fight benefit fraud (65% agree).
ID cards help control illegal immigration (60% agree).

Looking at the beliefs a bit closer:

TERRORISM:

Privacy International reports:
"Of the 25 countries that have been most adversely affected by terrorism since 1986, 80% have national ID cards, 1/3 of which incorporate biometrics".

FRAUD:
The govt claims:
ID fraud costs the UK ?1.3bn / year.
The facts (from the home office's own figures):
?50m of that figure is due to benefit fraud.
Most is due to credit card fraud - which ID cards do nothing to address.

ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION
www.no2id.net states: An ID card would no more prevent illegal working than the current laws do. Employers who flout these laws ... will ignore these measures.

--------------

The London School of Economics states:
"The proposals are too complex, technically unsafe, overly prescriptive ... no scheme on this scale has been undertaken anywahere in the world; smaller & less ambitious systems have encountered substantial technological and operational problems that are likely to be amplified in a large-scale national system."

--------------

Some other fantastic govt IT goofs:

In 2002 the dept. of Transport found out that the DVLA database contained 10m too many vehicles.
In 2001, the Commons Home Affairs Select Comittee found errors in 65% of records on the Police National Computer.
Between 1997 - 2003 the govt wasted ?1.5bn on delayed or cancelled IT projects.

-------------

Not to give up hope: Andy Robson of the www.no2id.net campaign states that "early estimated suggest that as little as 2% non-compliance will be required to seriously undermine the whole scheme".

GD · Post by GD » 11 Jul 2005, 13:51

Are the ID cards about to be pushed on us?

PA Consulting paid ?12m for ID cards scheme
July 8th, 2005 at 11:00 pm by andrew
Management Consultancy magazine exclusively reports that the Home Office has so far spent ?17m on its ID cards scheme, with ?12m going to a single company, PA Consulting.
This despite the ID cards bill having barely started its journey through parliament.

I think so...

fishertrop · Post by **fishertrop** » 25 Jul 2005, 15:33

Brian Waldon says

So we ought to be clear at the outset that sacrifices will have to be made. I don't mean in lives; I'm talking about attitudes and beliefs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4714485.stm

I could not disagree with him more.

How many people tho will read and be influenced by just this one article?

Blue Peter · Post by **Blue Peter** » 25 Jul 2005, 15:52

I must admit to being a little confused. All the authorities are telling people to "carry on as before", "don't let the bombers affect your lives, or they'll have won", whilst they are busily doing exactly the opposite.

Peter.

fishertrop · Post by **fishertrop** » 25 Jul 2005, 21:25

Just around the corner is "...and in order to carry on as we are we need ID cards"

and

"..so in order to ensure that the bombers do not win we need internment of suspects"

RogerCO · Post by **RogerCO** » 25 Jul 2005, 23:46

fishertrop wrote:"..so in order to ensure that the bombers do not win we need internment of suspects"

Actually that's not around the corner it happened today with the request from the police for the ability to hold suspects for three months without charge.
That sounds like a jail sentence to me...or you could call it internment to make it sound more acceptable

isenhand · Post by **isenhand** » 26 Jul 2005, 05:47

Sounds to me like the article was very reactionary with little thinking, playing on peoples fears. To me, the way to combat political terrorist (and despite the use of religion these terrorists are political) is education (hearts and minds) to undermine their ideology. But then, that is a long term solution and so would not be popular.

newmac · Post by **newmac** » 26 Jul 2005, 17:52

I have little doubt that ID cards will be brought in in some form. It is actually more dangerous if they get brought in in a diluted form.

When they are in, it will only take a small percentage of the population to refuse, and be willing to suffer the consequences, for them to become useless.

Organise card buring parties, send the sheds to Downing street, protest. Labour will have its own poll tax with this one.

PowerSwitch

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