Just wondering which people will cope when TSHTF.
I am thinking of 4 broad groups
Extreme vegetarians who buy a lot of exotic foodstuff from far places
Ordinary vegetarians who eat proper veg, so could be locally grown
Meat eaters who like a bit of veg
Junk food addicts
As I classify myself as a meat eater who is happy to eat veg, I am probably biased and think I have a better chance as I would be able to adapt to what is available, so I might be being a boit hard on most vegetarians, but in UK we simply don't grow many of the alternatives to meat.
I would expect the junk food addicts to have the biggest problem, unless they learn to adapt.
Some strict vegetarians(vegans included) might have problems unless they are growing their own already, so don't need to adapt, but might find themselves competing more for what is available.
Vegetarians or meat eaters - survival after TSHTF?
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rue_d_etropal
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First what do you mean by TSHTF? Are you expecting a fast crash or much slower decline?, and how will it take place? I suspect if the worst comes to the worst, hungry people will probably throw their preferences and ideologies aside and eat anything they can find, and if it implies the outbreak of nuclear war... well, we're all in the same awful boat, if we're left. All food is going to be potentially dangerous. (?)
I would imagine if you imply a moderate situation where it becomes difficult (because of rising oil prices) to import most foodstuffs, I suppose it also depends on whether it's possible for vegans to live on a balanced diet with only local ingredients in a given area- if it is, fine.
I suspect the people who will be best offf will be those who prefer a balanced diet- perhaps with some meat but not too much, with the right amount of vegetable matter. Given some marginal land isn't good for anything but raising livestock, it makes sense to have some meat or other animal products around.
I do recall hearing about the Living In The Past programme from back in the '70s, where a group of people decided to live a quasi-Iron Age lifestyle, and the veggies (not vegans) found it hardest as all the tastiest food was stuf like chese, which was limited, and those who didn't eat meat were limited. Maybe there is a better selection of stuff available in Britian than was around a couple of millenia or so ago mind- new crops introduced either by the Romans or borght back during the colonial era and later...
...and I suppose we won't necessarily be reverting to an Iron Age existence of necessity, but even in the worst case scenario into something completely different.
I would imagine if you imply a moderate situation where it becomes difficult (because of rising oil prices) to import most foodstuffs, I suppose it also depends on whether it's possible for vegans to live on a balanced diet with only local ingredients in a given area- if it is, fine.
I suspect the people who will be best offf will be those who prefer a balanced diet- perhaps with some meat but not too much, with the right amount of vegetable matter. Given some marginal land isn't good for anything but raising livestock, it makes sense to have some meat or other animal products around.
I do recall hearing about the Living In The Past programme from back in the '70s, where a group of people decided to live a quasi-Iron Age lifestyle, and the veggies (not vegans) found it hardest as all the tastiest food was stuf like chese, which was limited, and those who didn't eat meat were limited. Maybe there is a better selection of stuff available in Britian than was around a couple of millenia or so ago mind- new crops introduced either by the Romans or borght back during the colonial era and later...
...and I suppose we won't necessarily be reverting to an Iron Age existence of necessity, but even in the worst case scenario into something completely different.
Having been in both camps, I was a veggie for about 18 years, I think veggies will be ok. The adjustment to a lack of meat, which I think there will be, wont be such a shock to them, but those who compromise on their decision to be veggie will do the best.
That's only my view on it though based on now being a meat eater and knowing how other meat eaters don't consider a meal having any nutritional value unless it contains at least 50% meat.
When I gave up being a veggie, I was 36. So I'd been a veggie for about half my life. All through that time I'd been a delivery postman, so it wasn't like I had a sedentary job that didn't use up a lot of calories. Although to be fair, I think I did eat more than my fair share of snacks. Crisps and chocolate.
I could quite easily return to being a veggie, if that was all there was to eat. Veggies might however struggle if they're not prepared to eat whatever there is going... and crucially don't have a ready access to veg.
In a first world diet, being a veggie is an option for many. It's not a necessity thing as it is in large parts of the 3rd world. Unless someone (in the 1st world) who doesn't have an easily accessible store of veggie foods, a broad range of them too, then the option to be a veggie could be extremely limiting.
Saying all that, hunger, real malnutritional hunger, will sort out the hardcore veggies from those who are optionally veggie, if a rabbit is in the stew.
That's only my view on it though based on now being a meat eater and knowing how other meat eaters don't consider a meal having any nutritional value unless it contains at least 50% meat.
When I gave up being a veggie, I was 36. So I'd been a veggie for about half my life. All through that time I'd been a delivery postman, so it wasn't like I had a sedentary job that didn't use up a lot of calories. Although to be fair, I think I did eat more than my fair share of snacks. Crisps and chocolate.
I could quite easily return to being a veggie, if that was all there was to eat. Veggies might however struggle if they're not prepared to eat whatever there is going... and crucially don't have a ready access to veg.
In a first world diet, being a veggie is an option for many. It's not a necessity thing as it is in large parts of the 3rd world. Unless someone (in the 1st world) who doesn't have an easily accessible store of veggie foods, a broad range of them too, then the option to be a veggie could be extremely limiting.
Saying all that, hunger, real malnutritional hunger, will sort out the hardcore veggies from those who are optionally veggie, if a rabbit is in the stew.
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Re: Vegetarians or meat eaters - survival after TSHTF?
The junk food addicts will still have plenty of chips....rue_d_etropal wrote:Just wondering which people will cope when TSHTF.
I am thinking of 4 broad groups
Extreme vegetarians who buy a lot of exotic foodstuff from far places
Ordinary vegetarians who eat proper veg, so could be locally grown
Meat eaters who like a bit of veg
Junk food addicts
One prediction I will make is that we will change our attitudes to eating parts of animals that these days are not generally consumed by humans. People will once again eat offal like heart and lungs and tripe, and body parts like heads and trotters. People will eat brawn again and buy belly joints instead of more expensive cuts, and they'll keep the fat and use it instead of buying cooking oil and other fats. I've already found myself heading in this direction.
Everything but the oink....
"We fail to mandate economic sanity because our brains are addled by....compassion." (Garrett Hardin)
I've been vegetarian all my 29 years, but I when I go working/WWOOFing abroad later this year I may reluctantly go omnivorous for communal meals.
If Dmitri Orlov's speculative predictions from a few years ago come to pass (and it looks all too feasible to me) then it's vegans specifically that will survive in future, with other humans dying out.
Also semi-relevant is a fascinating article recently on the Energy Bulletin on the nutritional security of locally grown food, which is dependant on levels of trace minerals in soils and populations of localities lacking certain ones may suffer from consequent diseases, as was apparently the norm in Derbyshire. The nutritional resilience approach to food security. It's made me aware that if I managed to buy my patch of land in the tropics to become a subsidence farmer/forest gardener, then I should really have the soil tested to check if the necessary elements are present and if not to do something about it while such is still possible.
If Dmitri Orlov's speculative predictions from a few years ago come to pass (and it looks all too feasible to me) then it's vegans specifically that will survive in future, with other humans dying out.
Also semi-relevant is a fascinating article recently on the Energy Bulletin on the nutritional security of locally grown food, which is dependant on levels of trace minerals in soils and populations of localities lacking certain ones may suffer from consequent diseases, as was apparently the norm in Derbyshire. The nutritional resilience approach to food security. It's made me aware that if I managed to buy my patch of land in the tropics to become a subsidence farmer/forest gardener, then I should really have the soil tested to check if the necessary elements are present and if not to do something about it while such is still possible.
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rue_d_etropal
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I suppose I want to stir people up which is why I posted this thread. Tried something similar elsewhere, and after a while it died out. I am part of a project which set up an eco shop. Trouble ius, when I looked around all the food items(which were vegetarian), I noticed thar the nearest any came from was the outer reaches of Europe, apart from one or two locally made products. I have a few years behind mew, remember the 1960s, which means I wasn't really old enoug tghen, but did observe the past 40 years of so called health shops, and while some vegetarians might be able to adapt, many have got used to buying luxury items from abroad. Maybe they are not as strict as some are, so will bend the rules even further.
To answer the first question, hopefull TSHTF won't be sudden as that be make survival even more difficult. More likely to be a slow descent, and that is OK for those prepared, but many will stick to what they eat before whether it was strict vegan or junk food addict.
My biggest fear is that among the groups of people who are aware, many are still not prepared to face reality, discuss things properly(and noisily). Not time for being PC here, which is one reason I like this forum. Too many people don't rise to the bait. I want to get everyone thinking, and think some people(incliding vegetarians) prefer to think nice fluffy things ang turn their backs on what is really happening.
Although the vegetarian movement has absolutely nothing to do with the environmental movement, the general public generally see environmentalists as tree hugging vegetarians. This could not be further from the truth. 30 years ago when I was actively involved in practical conservation work, only a very small percentage of those getting involved were vegetarians, and we only got a few thinking trees should not be cut down. We were practical, and better prepoared for the future. I really want to provoke a discussion , and possiblr the louder the better. Maybe then, someone with real influence will actually hear.
And finally, I have had over 30 years of being made to feel a monster by some people, just bewcause I actually like eating meat, but then came along Simon Fairlie with his in depth research which despite trying to keep some vegetarians on board managed to blow away most of the scientific /statistical evidence used by vegetarians .
To answer the first question, hopefull TSHTF won't be sudden as that be make survival even more difficult. More likely to be a slow descent, and that is OK for those prepared, but many will stick to what they eat before whether it was strict vegan or junk food addict.
My biggest fear is that among the groups of people who are aware, many are still not prepared to face reality, discuss things properly(and noisily). Not time for being PC here, which is one reason I like this forum. Too many people don't rise to the bait. I want to get everyone thinking, and think some people(incliding vegetarians) prefer to think nice fluffy things ang turn their backs on what is really happening.
Although the vegetarian movement has absolutely nothing to do with the environmental movement, the general public generally see environmentalists as tree hugging vegetarians. This could not be further from the truth. 30 years ago when I was actively involved in practical conservation work, only a very small percentage of those getting involved were vegetarians, and we only got a few thinking trees should not be cut down. We were practical, and better prepoared for the future. I really want to provoke a discussion , and possiblr the louder the better. Maybe then, someone with real influence will actually hear.
And finally, I have had over 30 years of being made to feel a monster by some people, just bewcause I actually like eating meat, but then came along Simon Fairlie with his in depth research which despite trying to keep some vegetarians on board managed to blow away most of the scientific /statistical evidence used by vegetarians .
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JavaScriptDonkey
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I'm from Derby. Derbyshire neck (thyroid swelling from iodine deficiency) is remembered from my mother's childhood. Combination of the poor iodine in the soil up the peak with a low meat diet that most working people had which we would consider borderline malnutrition today.GlynG wrote:I've been vegetarian all my 29 years, but I when I go working/WWOOFing abroad later this year I may reluctantly go omnivorous for communal meals.
If Dmitri Orlov's speculative predictions from a few years ago come to pass (and it looks all too feasible to me) then it's vegans specifically that will survive in future, with other humans dying out.
Also semi-relevant is a fascinating article recently on the Energy Bulletin on the nutritional security of locally grown food, which is dependant on levels of trace minerals in soils and populations of localities lacking certain ones may suffer from consequent diseases, as was apparently the norm in Derbyshire. The nutritional resilience approach to food security. It's made me aware that if I managed to buy my patch of land in the tropics to become a subsidence farmer/forest gardener, then I should really have the soil tested to check if the necessary elements are present and if not to do something about it while such is still possible.
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SleeperService
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That's still around now. My friend's neighbour in Selston has one and I've seen others and not all in the elderlyJonB wrote:I'm from Derby. Derbyshire neck (thyroid swelling from iodine deficiency) is remembered from my mother's childhood. Combination of the poor iodine in the soil up the peak with a low meat diet that most working people had which we would consider borderline malnutrition today.
Scarcity is the new black
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rue_d_etropal
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I can only recommend Simon Fairlie's book, which I consider essential reading.
One problem in Northern Europe is the climate, and as a result some things simply do not grow in large enough quantities. In particular nuts which would be an essential altenative to meat. I had not realised that nuts are not that productive anywher above a line a 100 moles south of Paris. It is
OK talking about feeding a handful of people with an alternative diet, but feeding a large population, that is very different.
And that reference to middle class, I wasn't going to add that yet, but I see the vegetarian movement as largely white middle class, and therefore mainly people who can afford to chose. Also to get the sustainability argument over to the rest of our population, it has to be more acceptable. Again I stress we need to ditch the treehugging vegetarian label that is applied to many in the environmental movement.
One problem in Northern Europe is the climate, and as a result some things simply do not grow in large enough quantities. In particular nuts which would be an essential altenative to meat. I had not realised that nuts are not that productive anywher above a line a 100 moles south of Paris. It is
OK talking about feeding a handful of people with an alternative diet, but feeding a large population, that is very different.
And that reference to middle class, I wasn't going to add that yet, but I see the vegetarian movement as largely white middle class, and therefore mainly people who can afford to chose. Also to get the sustainability argument over to the rest of our population, it has to be more acceptable. Again I stress we need to ditch the treehugging vegetarian label that is applied to many in the environmental movement.
That's not true at the moment and climate change makes it less so with time. Martin Crawford of the Agroforestry Research Trust in Devon has chestnut trial grounds with 18 different cultivars (mainly ones from France due to climate change), which he started planting in 1995. Now that the trees are established he gets a yield equivalent to that of organic wheat and for very much less work (important when we don't have fossil fuel energy elves to help us). It's a more resilient and sustainable method of production which also locks up carbon, rather than releasing it as happens with conventional agriculture (whether organic or not).rue_d_etropal wrote:One problem in Northern Europe is the climate, and as a result some things simply do not grow in large enough quantities. In particular nuts which would be an essential altenative to meat. I had not realised that nuts are not that productive anywher above a line a 100 moles south of Paris. It is
OK talking about feeding a handful of people with an alternative diet, but feeding a large population, that is very different.
Peeling chestnuts can take a while but one of the issues of his Agroforestry News journal featured an article on a mechanical chestnut peeling machine that a chestnut farm in the US had made. If I wanted to stay in the UK I'd think about trying to set up a chestnut farm with forest garden and making a peeler (powering it by hydro power or animal power) as it could be a good source of protein and income in the future.