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woodburner
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Post by woodburner »

Little John wrote:I've kept out of this debate more or less thus far. But, will note the following;

Whatever the seriousness of the issue of the climate and the rest of life on earth - which, for the sake of clarity I do consider as serious issues - I am nevertheless noticing my bullshit antenna starting to twitch of late with the sudden up-tick in "news" about these issues and the popping up out of nowhere, all fully formed (and fully funded it would seem), of a "movement" like the "Extinction Rebellion".

It all smells a bit "Pussy Hat" to me.
You may be correct

It seems posts about extinction rebellion should not be in the Climate Change forum, as they have more to do with Life in the Future or Government and Society, but precious little to do with climate.
To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

woodburner wrote:
kenneal - lagger wrote:How do you explain, Woodburner, that even the fossil fuel industry's own scientists found that global warming is a fact. Or are they in on the conspiracy as well?

I would seem that you think that 97% of climate scientists have got entirely the wrong idea as have virtually 100% of health scientists on vaccination but you seem to be quite happy with computer science as you're using this forum, electrical generation science for the same reason and why are you using a car when it might blow up on you although 100% of scientists working in the field of the internal combustion engine would say that that is wrong?
Hmmmm, a mish-mash of flawed suppositions, as for your last point about cars blowing up, talk to owners of Vauxhall Zafiras..
"a mish-mash of flawed suppositions," would also cover your entire argument, Woodburner, on climate change.

You have carefully avoided the question in my first sentence. There are no flawed suppositions there.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
woodburner
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Post by woodburner »

kenneal - lagger wrote:
woodburner wrote:
kenneal - lagger wrote:How do you explain, Woodburner, that even the fossil fuel industry's own scientists found that global warming is a fact. Or are they in on the conspiracy as well?

I would seem that you think that 97% of climate scientists have got entirely the wrong idea as have virtually 100% of health scientists on vaccination but you seem to be quite happy with computer science as you're using this forum, electrical generation science for the same reason and why are you using a car when it might blow up on you although 100% of scientists working in the field of the internal combustion engine would say that that is wrong?
Hmmmm, a mish-mash of flawed suppositions, as for your last point about cars blowing up, talk to owners of Vauxhall Zafiras..
"a mish-mash of flawed suppositions," would also cover your entire argument, Woodburner, on climate change.

You have carefully avoided the question in my first sentence. There are no flawed suppositions there.
Your post is full of 97% to 100% assumption. You have no idea why I didn’t answer the question, much less how I avoided it. You should ask them, not me.
To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

vtsnowedin wrote:Moving beyond the question of "Is climate change caused by human activity?" the real question becomes what if anything can the human population do to correct the problem? Good answers there are few and far between.
There are plenty of things that we can do, VT.

1 Localise food production and grow organically.
2 Eat much less meat and eat meat produced from pasture.
3 Produce charcoal from agricultural wastes and sequester this in the soil (as in Terra Preta)
4 Eat seasonal foods.

The first three items will start to recarbonise soils depleted of carbon by industrial agriculture, sequestering large quantities of carbon in the soil and reduce the transport of food over thousands of miles.

5 Reduce car sizes.
6 Reduce engine sizes.
7 Drive/travel less.
8 Use public transport.
9 Electrify transport.
10 Walk and cycle more.
11 Tax air travel to reduce usage and eventually out of existence if still using fossil fuels.
12 Make use of aircraft engines on the ground illegal up to actual takeoff and after landing. Electric tug vehicles can be used instead.
13 Make unassisted takeoff illegal. Use some sort of electrical power assisted takeoff as on Ford class aircraft carriers.

The above will massively reduce fossil fuel use especially in the US. Much of Europe has already made the savings on engine and vehicle size although even there savings can still be made on expensive, manhood enhancing cars.

14 Business should be encouraged to allow people to work from home.
15 More flexible working should be encouraged to reduce rush hour congestion
16 Meetings should be on video link.
17 Conferences should be on video link.
18 Production should go from mass production of cheap, short lived, throwaway crap to batch production of long lived, repairable, recyclable, useful goods.

It should be noted that much of the above is in the ability of individuals to accomplish either through their own actions or by influencing the actions of their own business or the one that they work for.

There's a start and I know there is much else that can be added but I'll let others add things on. I'm sure that many of you would like to contribute. Number sequentially please so that we can comment by number.
Last edited by kenneal - lagger on 29 Apr 2019, 13:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

woodburner wrote:................
Your post is full of 97% to 100% assumption. You have no idea why I didn’t answer the question, much less how I avoided it. You should ask them, not me.
You are quite happy to swallow the garbage spouted by non scientists in the pay of fossil fuel companies but you won't listen to what scientists paid by fossil fuel companies say. It would seem that anything a scientist says is wrong in your mind. What a strange way of thinking you have!
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

To add to the above, something that we can't change on our own, but which is at the centre of the problem -

19 Replace the banking system with one which doesn't require or pay interest.
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emordnilap
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Post by emordnilap »

20 Insulate
21 Insulate even more.

:lol:
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emordnilap
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Post by emordnilap »

22. Campaign for the introduction of TEQs/C&S
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emordnilap
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Post by emordnilap »

23. End farm subsidies.
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Post by careful_eugene »

24, Grow some of your own vegetables and fruit.
25, Look after your health, eat well and keep fit.
26, Buy less stuff and think about the whole life cycle of what you do buy.
27, Plant trees.
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woodburner
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Post by woodburner »

kenneal - lagger wrote:
woodburner wrote:................
Your post is full of 97% to 100% assumption. You have no idea why I didn’t answer the question, much less how I avoided it. You should ask them, not me.
You are quite happy to swallow the garbage spouted by non scientists in the pay of fossil fuel companies but you won't listen to what scientists paid by fossil fuel companies say. It would seem that anything a scientist says is wrong in your mind. What a strange way of thinking you have!

Ad hominem attack again.
To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein
woodburner
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Post by woodburner »

emordnilap wrote:22. Campaign for the introduction of TEQs/C&S
I think that would be an opening for usuerers to make money at everyone elses expense.
To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein
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emordnilap
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Post by emordnilap »

woodburner wrote:
emordnilap wrote:22. Campaign for the introduction of TEQs/C&S
I think that would be an opening for usuerers to make money at everyone elses expense.
22.5 Legislate that TEQs can only be sold at normal open market prices? Whatever, it’s not a reason to not implement them.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
woodburner
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Post by woodburner »

emordnilap wrote:
woodburner wrote:
emordnilap wrote:22. Campaign for the introduction of TEQs/C&S
I think that would be an opening for usuerers to make money at everyone elses expense.
22.5 Legislate that TEQs can only be sold at normal open market prices? Whatever, it’s not a reason to not implement them.
Isn't the open market operated by a lot of speculation? Recently there were the carbon trading certificates (maybe a different title), and that turned into a way to relieve people of their life savings.
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emordnilap
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Post by emordnilap »

woodburner wrote:
emordnilap wrote:
woodburner wrote: I think that would be an opening for usuerers to make money at everyone elses expense.
22.5 Legislate that TEQs can only be sold at normal open market prices? Whatever, it’s not a reason to not implement them.
Isn't the open market operated by a lot of speculation? Recently there were the carbon trading certificates (maybe a different title), and that turned into a way to relieve people of their life savings.
The EU system was designed with the help of fossil fuel companies so isn't relevant in this context.

If you have questions about the operation of a TEQ system, you should ask in the TEQ forum. We're going off-topic here.

Alternatively, you could visit the TEQs website so as to understand what's proposed.

Alternatively, you could campaign for a C&S system, which doesn't rely on trading individual shares.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
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