Al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden is dead

postie · Post by **postie** » 03 May 2011, 21:38

foodimista wrote: So those who were listening knew all along that he meant that OBL was caught and executed there and then.

I think it's absolutely shocking they executed him, while he was unarmed, in his house.

...They should have taken him alive...

And then killed him by beheading him with a half rusty, blunt blade, on youtube... like his AQ mates do to un-armed hostages.

Ludwig · Post by **Ludwig** » 03 May 2011, 23:16

foodimista wrote:
foodimista wrote:
Ludwig wrote:On the contrary, I am LESS certain of the truth than you would appear to be. I don't disbelieve any official statement, but I question official statements where (a) the facts don't appear to add up and (b) the government clearly has an interest in a particular slant on events being perpetuated.
What facts are you referring to in this case?

I am referring to the general claims made about Al Qaeda and bin Laden, and about his links to 9/11. I don't claim to know that he died years ago, and I don't claim to know that he wasn't killed on Sunday. You won't find me saying anywhere that I am certain of any particular course of events, merely that I am sceptical that OBL was what we're told he was.

- Video footage verified by the CIA to be of him since 2001 shows a man who looks decidedly different from OBL, and who is right-, not left-handed.
- It is claimed he was buried at sea, but there is no obvious reason for this.
- All the evidence about 9/11 that doesn't stack up. I assume you know the arguments, since you are so sure they are wrong.
- An interview with film director Aaron Russo, made while he was dying of cancer (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0426590918). Russo was, for a while, friends with one of the Rockefellers, who, Russo claimed, told him before 9/11 that America was about to invade the Middle East on the pretext of looking for OBL. Of course Russo could be lying. So could anyone.
- Evidence recounted in "The New Pearl Harbor" and "See No Evil" that information regarding OBL's whereabouts, provided by foreign security services, was persistently ignored by the CIA.

There's more stuff I've read and I can't remember all of it, but it informs my general impression that OBL was not what we were told.

I'm not here to try and persuade you of any of this through detailed arguments; I'm merely explaining, in general terms, my scepticism. Many of the arguments I read I found persuasive, but have forgotten, and frankly you're not worth the trouble of my going back and reminding myself of them. However, I can't let you get away with calling my mere suspicions "conspiracy mongering".

Ludwig · Post by **Ludwig** » 03 May 2011, 23:26

foodimista wrote:You can now watch bin Laden live on the BBC website. Maybe there is something to those conspiracy theories after all.

There's a link to the Guardian's "debunking" of the OBL conspiracy theories. The "debunking" consists of a series of unqualified statements that "There is no evidence for this". I'm prepared to listen to reasoned arguments, but, to quote Monty Python, this is not argument, it's just contradiction.

2 As and a B · Post by **2 As and a B** » 04 May 2011, 07:43

Ludwig wrote:
foodimista wrote:
foodimista wrote: What facts are you referring to in this case?
I am referring to the general claims made about Al Qaeda and bin Laden, and about his links to 9/11. I don't claim to know that he died years ago, and I don't claim to know that he wasn't killed on Sunday. You won't find me saying anywhere that I am certain of any particular course of events, merely that I am sceptical that OBL was what we're told he was.

- Video footage verified by the CIA to be of him since 2001 shows a man who looks decidedly different from OBL, and who is right-, not left-handed.
- It is claimed he was buried at sea, but there is no obvious reason for this.
- All the evidence about 9/11 that doesn't stack up. I assume you know the arguments, since you are so sure they are wrong.

Excuse me. Who are you talking about there?

Ludwig wrote:- An interview with film director Aaron Russo, made while he was dying of cancer (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0426590918). Russo was, for a while, friends with one of the Rockefellers, who, Russo claimed, told him before 9/11 that America was about to invade the Middle East on the pretext of looking for OBL. Of course Russo could be lying. So could anyone.
- Evidence recounted in "The New Pearl Harbor" and "See No Evil" that information regarding OBL's whereabouts, provided by foreign security services, was persistently ignored by the CIA.

There's more stuff I've read and I can't remember all of it, but it informs my general impression that OBL was not what we were told.

I'm not here to try and persuade you of any of this through detailed arguments; I'm merely explaining, in general terms, my scepticism. Many of the arguments I read I found persuasive, but have forgotten, and frankly you're not worth the trouble of my going back and reminding myself of them. However, I can't let you get away with calling my mere suspicions "conspiracy mongering".

Again, who are you talking about there? Me or the whole world? If me, I'd like to know where I've used the term "conspiracy mongering".

A lot of your "facts" seem merely to be testament. I am however intrigued by the left-handed, right-handed OBL. Do you have links to the videos showing this change?

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 04 May 2011, 11:14

Ludwig - I entirely agree with you regarding Obama and his long-term connections with US intelligence. I recommend reading those WSWS links I provided witch summarise his real history and background.

The mainstream account on OBL is quite frankly very partial and contradictory. What made me laugh was that in 1998 his movement had around 30 individuals, three years later, he was capable, alone, of organising the most sophisticated terrorist attack in world history!!!

Anybody who takes the official 9/11 account seriously is off their heads! The Bush-Cheney adminstration knew all about the planned attack and helped it go through for their own neo-conservative agenda.

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 04 May 2011, 11:59

Lord Beria3 wrote:Ludwig - I'm waiting with baited breath for your unofficial report into OBL death

caspian · Post by **caspian** » 04 May 2011, 16:47

foodimista - I think that's me he's referring to there, as I used the words "conspiracy mongering". Apparently that constitutes "showering [him] with insults".

postie · Post by **postie** » 04 May 2011, 21:30

I find conspiracy theorists, on the whole, depressing.

I'm sure, given the impetus, a conspiracy could be formed about anything. What I find truly depressing is that the default setting of those who promote any wacky theory, is that if you don't accept what they're saying, then somehow you're either blinkered, stupid, gullible or brainwashed into believing whatever the Govt want you to believe.

That, sadly, is sometimes true. As Govts aren't on the whole totally truthful, or have an agenda they need to fulfill for whatever reason. And there are people who believe everything the Govt say. We don't have to go back too far to remember what Blair said about WMD's.

But most people who don't accept lunatic theories, aren't by default dupes.

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 04 May 2011, 21:41

caspian wrote:foodimista - I think that's me he's referring to there, as I used the words "conspiracy mongering". Apparently that constitutes "showering [him] with insults".

Crikey that's TAME compared with what's been going on on the Nuke thread of late...

2 As and a B · Post by **2 As and a B** » 05 May 2011, 07:45

So it seems we won't get any photographic evidence of OBL's death: No release of Bin Laden photos

Which rather begs the questions: why the assault troops were wearing helmet-mounted cameras; why the live video feed was stopped when they reached the compound where OBL supposedly was; why the live feed was off for 25 minutes; why they shot OBL in the head; what OBL and his team actually saw; and did it not occur the the US administration that the world would demand proof.

Surely there must be some footage or stills that could be released? The delay or non-appearance of photographic evidence only fuels suspicions that the US secret service is trying to fake such evidence (without success so far) or the whole episode is a pack of lies.

What did Obama et al really see and what do they actually know? Have they been duped? Do we trust Obama's word?

He said yesterday "You will not see bin Laden walking on this earth again" (or something very like it - it has been reported with minor variations.) If OBL is locked up in some cell, or was killed some time ago, then of course we won't see him walking around, so Obama wouldn't be lying. I couldn't find the video of Obama saying this, but the video with the link above has him blinking an awful lot when he talks about there being no doubt that OBL is dead.

Andy Hunt · Post by **Andy Hunt** » 05 May 2011, 09:07

Absolutely supreme timing with his visit to Ground Zero today. And I wondered if the foreknowledge (of success) emboldened his jokes about Donald Trump the night before.

Ludwig · Post by **Ludwig** » 05 May 2011, 18:59

Ludwig · Post by **Ludwig** » 05 May 2011, 19:01

postie wrote:I find conspiracy theorists, on the whole, depressing.

I'm sure, given the impetus, a conspiracy could be formed about anything. What I find truly depressing is that the default setting of those who promote any wacky theory, is that if you don't accept what they're saying, then somehow you're either blinkered, stupid, gullible or brainwashed into believing whatever the Govt want you to believe.

Well, if you can't take it, don't dish it out.

That, sadly, is sometimes true. As Govts aren't on the whole totally truthful, or have an agenda they need to fulfill for whatever reason. And there are people who believe everything the Govt say. We don't have to go back too far to remember what Blair said about WMD's.

The difference with the WMDs issue is that the media challenged the Government and therefore made questioning the official version of events intellectually acceptable among the population at large. I guarantee you that if the media had all got behind the Government at the time, questioning the existence of Saddam's WMDs would be considered up there in the loony stakes with questioning the events of 9/11 or last Sunday.

But most people who don't accept lunatic theories, aren't by default dupes.

What annoys me is people who raise the emotional tone of a debate by proclaiming certain opinions to be, a priori, "wacky" or "lunatic". Evidence doesn't come into it. The mere possibility that these versions of events might have something in them is simply not to be entertained.

I don't mind people explaining in reasoned arguments why they think I'm wrong, but I have zero respect for those who simply ridicule me.

I challenge you to explain why the suspicions I've expressed here are "wacky" or "lunatic". Bearing in mind that all I've said is that I am sceptical that OBL is what the authorities claim, and that I have given reasons for this.

Ludwig · Post by **Ludwig** » 05 May 2011, 19:38

foodimista wrote: Again, who are you talking about there? Me or the whole world? If me, I'd like to know where I've used the term "conspiracy mongering".

Sorry, that was Caspian. I sometimes tend to conflate PS members

A lot of your "facts" seem merely to be testament.

Well, it's a fact that this testament was made - in the end, everything is testament, isn't it? Unless you're there at the scene, all evidence is circumstantial.

Perhaps OBL is everything we're told, but that leaves open a lot of questions that TPTB could clear up quite easily if their version of events is accurate. Maybe one day they will, and my scepticism will prove unfounded. That's fine by me, I really don't care one way or the other, but I'm not going to let fear of ridicule affect my judgment in the mean time. Because ultimately, it's fear of ridicule - or rather, perhaps, fear of appearing ridiculous to oneself - that causes people to reject out of hand unorthodox opinions regardless of evidence supporting them.

I am however intrigued by the left-handed, right-handed OBL. Do you have links to the videos showing this change?

Here's one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41UAnkQARFs. More than the right-handedness (admittedly it's not clear what he's doing with his hand, although I assume the conversation makes it evident he's writing), I'm persuaded that this guy just doesn't look like bin Laden. More from the video is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhctMpvs ... re=related

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 06 May 2011, 14:13

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -live.html

13:22: A statement issued on a jihadist website by al Qaeda confirms the death of its leader. The terror group goes on to say bin Laden's blood will not be wasted and vows to continue attacks against America and its allies.

13:14 Breaking News - Al Qaeda confirms the death of Osama bin Laden

Hopefully this will kill of the silly theories going around the internet.