Greece Watch...

JavaScriptDonkey · Post by **JavaScriptDonkey** » 11 Apr 2013, 21:21

Are they also preparing a claim against the Spartans I wonder?

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 12 Apr 2013, 01:07

And we worry about Basil Fawlty mentioning the war!!

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 12 Apr 2013, 12:11

UndercoverElephant wrote:Greece to claim 162 billion euros from Germany as war reparations:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina ... -bomb.html

Good on them.

JavaScriptDonkey · Post by **JavaScriptDonkey** » 13 Apr 2013, 00:15

emordnilap wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:Greece to claim 162 billion euros from Germany as war reparations:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina ... -bomb.html

Good on them.

Why? What have the tax payers in 2013 Germany got to do with the actions of their grandfathers in 1941?

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 13 Apr 2013, 23:19

To give but one example, seizing of property. http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 32358.html

Tarrel · Post by **Tarrel** » 15 Apr 2013, 17:17

German ‘anti-euro’ political party calls for ‘orderly dissolution’

http://rt.com/news/german-anti-euro-party-854/

More evidence of shifting moods in the Eurozone. Where was it I read that the first country to leave the Euro would be Germany?

Potemkin Villager · Post by **Potemkin Villager** » 15 Apr 2013, 19:10

JavaScriptDonkey wrote:
Why? What have the tax payers in 2013 Germany got to do with the actions of their grandfathers in 1941?

Quite simply they are trying to achieve economically what
they previously failed to achieve militarily.

JavaScriptDonkey · Post by **JavaScriptDonkey** » 15 Apr 2013, 20:01

Potemkin Villager wrote:
JavaScriptDonkey wrote:
Why? What have the tax payers in 2013 Germany got to do with the actions of their grandfathers in 1941?
Quite simply they are trying to achieve economically what
they previously failed to achieve militarily.

Are you seriously suggesting that a 4th Reich is nascent and looking greedily towards the Med?

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 15 Apr 2013, 20:05

It is apparently an historical fact that the first time the phrase "European Union" was ever uttered, it was not in English but was said by a certain German chancellor who...well you get the idea.

JavaScriptDonkey · Post by **JavaScriptDonkey** » 15 Apr 2013, 20:12

RenewableCandy wrote:To give but one example, seizing of property. http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 32358.html

This has nothing to do with Greece. Karlsruhe is in Germany.

If I came to you with a claim that the house you lived in was stolen from me by a forged will 50 years ago would you even consider just handing it over?

JavaScriptDonkey · Post by **JavaScriptDonkey** » 15 Apr 2013, 20:14

RenewableCandy wrote:It is apparently an historical fact that the first time the phrase "European Union" was ever uttered, it was not in English but was said by a certain German chancellor who...well you get the idea.

I doubt it.

Napoleon possibly or maybe Charlemagne.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 15 Apr 2013, 20:27

JavaScriptDonkey wrote:
RenewableCandy wrote:It is apparently an historical fact that the first time the phrase "European Union" was ever uttered, it was not in English but was said by a certain German chancellor who...well you get the idea.
I doubt it.

Napoleon possibly or maybe Charlemagne.

Or perhaps Augustus Caesar?

Potemkin Villager · Post by **Potemkin Villager** » 16 Apr 2013, 19:13

JavaScriptDonkey wrote:
Are you seriously suggesting that a 4th Reich is nascent and looking greedily towards the Med?

JSD actually it is ye who are suggesting this and attempting to put words in my mouth...

It is this sort of tedious misdirection and debating society tricks that seem to have driven a lot of interesting people off forum.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 16 Apr 2013, 19:41

Potemkin Villager wrote:
JavaScriptDonkey wrote:
Are you seriously suggesting that a 4th Reich is nascent and looking greedily towards the Med?
JSD actually it is ye who are suggesting this and attempting to put words in my mouth...

It is this sort of tedious misdirection and debating society tricks that seem to have driven a lot of interesting people off forum.

Ok, enough with that. I happen to find JSD occassionally irritiating, even occassionally infuriating for exactly the reasons you mention. However that's the nature of open dabte. You have to put up with plonkers and you definitely have to put up with debating tricksters. What you also have to do, in response, is up your own debating skills to counter such tactics.

However, if there is one thing i find even more tedious than misdirection debating tactics on any forum it is posters who come out with lines like (I'm paraphrasing) "...your kind of behaviour drives interesting people away from this forum...". It's the kind of line designed to shut debate down even more than misdirection is designed to derail it.

Engage with aruments, call them bollocks, call them misdirection or even tedious debating society tricks if you wish (I happen to agree with you with regards to some though by no means all of of JSD's posts, by the way). Just, enough with the last post.

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 16 Apr 2013, 19:53

Are JSD fears of a rising Fourth Reich and the ambitions of the german ruling class so unacceptable?

There is a case to be made that Germany has imperialistic ambitions and these are been channelled through financial-economic means rather than traditional invading countries.

Personally, I don't think that the German elite is consciously trying to re-create a 4th Reich but inadvertedly helping to cause the creation of a kind of 'German Europe' which can come across as a sort of economic empire.

However, I do think that sections of the German ruling class have never given up or ever trully accept that the old imperialistic ways of the Prussian and Nazi era's was wrong and would seek a return of a strong nationalistic Germany. I stress that these are very much the minority strand within the German elite (and the public) but one must remember that the West German elite after the war was dominated by former Nazis.

Has the demons of German nationalism been completely buried? No, not in my opinion and that is why the fears that JSB raise are probably wrong but they may be right to a certain extent.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/02 ... s-f21.html

As the WSWS write - and hardly a right-wing rag!!!...

Germany is making intensive preparations to conduct new wars to secure resources. This was the unmistakable message of a lead article in Germany's business newspaper Handelsblatt, “Expedition Resources: Germany's new course.”

The article shows the real face of the German bourgeoisie. As in the first half of the twentieth century, when it twice played a central role in plunging humanity into world war, it is again moving to enforce its imperialist interests through war. “The previous political measures to secure raw materials are reaching their limits,” the Handelsblatt states. Dependence on raw materials is the German economy’s Achilles heel, the paper writes: “Industry is plagued by the fear that the high-tech sector in Germany could be cut off from essential supplies.”

The very same business circles that financed Hitler are again banging the war drums. The article cites an interview with Dierk Paskert, the manager of the Resource Alliance founded in 2011. Members of the alliance include Volkswagen, ThyssenKrupp, Bayer and BASF—firms that either directly supported Nazi war plans, or whose predecessors did. Now they work closely with the German government to plan how Berlin will secure access to critical raw materials across the globe, by force if necessary.

The hunger of Germany’s export-dependent industry for materials and markets is huge. According to Handelsblatt German raw material imports over the last decade have nearly tripled. “The battle for resources is about oil and gas, but also minerals,” the newspaper writes. Handelsblatt gives a detailed overview of such highly prized resources as lithium, cobalt, chromium, indium and rare earth elements, and cites the growing conflict between the major powers over such resources.

Paskert makes clear that the German bourgeoisie is willing to use military force to secure such resources against its rivals. Asked by Handelsblatt whether there will once again be resource wars, he explains: “History shows that many conflicts are rooted in the fight for resources. Up to now it was mostly about oil or gas, but also increasingly minerals. The supply of raw materials is the basis for the value and wealth of a country and therefore has geopolitical significance. The presence of the US military in the Persian Gulf or the massive expansion of Chinese naval forces is also aimed at protecting such interests.” Handelsblatt assures its readers that this view finds support in political circles, and that for the federal government “the control of raw materials” is a “strategic issue for foreign policy”. It is preparing for a situation where “the existing resource partnerships” are insufficient and “additional security and military instruments are required.”

The return of aggressive German imperialism initiates a new stage of inter-imperialist conflict, raising the threat of a Third World War.