Ukraine Watch...

[Mark]

Conventional artillery just would not penetrate a modern tank. It will have 200-250mm thick armour plating. The only thing that will penetrate is the DU round, being as it contacts the armour it self sharpens and becomes flammable because of the high temperatures it creates.
As you say not good for the environment and is a STOT and carcinogen.

Not a scorched earth. It will be defended for use in Ukraine because it is being used in defensive role, although they were an attack weapon in the gulf war with most of saddens tanks being destroyed in the first hours of the battle.
They are so controversial that the shells have DEPLETED URANIUM: NOT TO BE FIRED IN PEACETIME written on each round.

Thanks for the info - will be grim if they're used - assume the Russians will have the same
Don't fancy being a tank driver on either side....

[Vortex2]

All this discussion about tank armours etc is irrelevant.
Back in the 60s and 70s the Rand Corp and others modelled exactly this sort of conflict.
You get incremental creep until the Russian forces are stalled or being wiped out.
They then use tactical nuclear wepaons ... and things get worse from there.
The colour of their uniforms, or the type of shells being used is just noise.

[UndercoverElephant]

It doesn't look good. Western response is pathetic. Sanctions, but not serious ones "because we've got to hold something back." Putin isn't scared.

This is beginning to look like the start of WW3.

[clv101]

Nothing so dramatic! The west just doesn't care enough to go further than stern words. Russia can expand influence into Eastern Ukraine without much response - no tactical nukes or WW3.

[adam2]

It doesn't look good. Western response is pathetic. Sanctions, but not serious ones "because we've got to hold something back." Putin isn't scared.

This is beginning to look like the start of WW3.

I do not think that this is LIKELY to end in a new world war, but I do consider this to be possible.

I suspect that the Russians might loose a conventional ground war. Various reports suggest that a lot of their equipment is poorly maintained and unreliable. Some weapons are vulnerable to technologically superior western equipment.
I also doubt the quality of many of their troops, unwilling conscripts whose main aim might be escape rather than fighting.

Defeat on the ground MIGHT lead to use of nuclear weapons, not in my view that likely, but more likely than it was a year or two ago.

I have a sort of unofficial "doom index" which consists of observing the prices and availability of certain doom related goods.
Freeze dried ultra long life foods, called "doomfood" for a reason. Plentiful at present.
Bulk packs of alkaline D cells, procell/duracell industrial. Plentiful at present.
LPG cylinders, in short supply at present.
Paraffin in retail packs, reasonable availability at present.
Government surplus blankets, very short supply and very expensive at present.
Water chlorination tablets, no shortages observed at present.

I regularly observe the prices and availability of these items on fleabay and elsewhere, not with the intention of buying any but simply for interest.

[Stumuz2]

Think that you'll find that the EU has also imposed economic sanctions on Russia.
Not the strongest, but still stronger than our extremely meek effort on a few banks and 3 individuals

You forgot to mention the deadly armaments that the UK has sent. What armaments has the EU sent?

Maybe Boris is wary because he knows there's so much dirty Russian money in London and the Tory Party ?

Russian dirty money is not confined to London. It's everywhere. The whole of the UK, Ireland, the EU, Canada etc. Which brings us to a very simple little thought experiment I give to proto socialists whenever they bang on about inequality, dirty money, super rich etc.
Your house (if you own one) has exploded in price over the last twenty years because money printing, wealthy foreign buyers bringing their dirty money to your house value, restriction on planning, mass immigration.

By how much are you willing to remortgage your house and send it to a suitable Ukraine charity to give back your unearned wealth? It will be interesting to read your reply.

Also, Germany's new Chancellor has said that they'll stop certification of Nord Stream 2 for the indefinite future.

Don't you see the irony in that statement? Germany building the pipeline was ab initio, a disgraceful act of violence on Ukraine. Germany was complicit in vastly weakening Ukraines geopolitical position, but also giving Putin the means to except pressure on on the rest of Europe. By giving the pipeline the status of national infrastructure, it allowed Putin to tap international's markets, and allow dirty money to flow into the EU. It was a beggar thy neighbour underhand move of the lowest order.
But i suppose the 'unity and solidarity' the EU is sending will give the Ukrainians...probably indigestion.

As for armaments, I'm sure that anything we send will have to be paid for - to the benefit of BAE Systems and the like...

Yes, thank the Lord!
Provides good quality employment, and strategic autonomy. Who would you rather buy you killing machines from? Putin? Trudeau? Ahern? Or horror of horror Macron!!! Yes Mr we will cut off your electricity supply or the WORLDS most used vaccine is quasi ineffective and thus causing hundreds of thousands needless deaths (see panorama)

All the worlds arm manufacturers/dealers will be wetting their lips in anticipation, and we're one of the biggest.....

Good.The battle field is a perfect R&D for future peace keeping weapons. Remember, it's the cowardly acts like building pipelines with your enemy, for your own pecuniary benefit that ultimately costs lives.

Don't let your anti-EU views cloud your vision....

I have never had a nebulous vision of the EU. They were always a corrupt (audits have never been signed off) anti democratic, self serving cabal of self appointed elites, who took Parkinsons law to unbelievable new heights.

[Stumuz2]

All this discussion about tank armours etc is irrelevant.
Back in the 60s and 70s the Rand Corp and others modelled exactly this sort of conflict.
You get incremental creep until the Russian forces are stalled or being wiped out.
They then use tactical nuclear wepaons ... and things get worse from there.
The colour of their uniforms, or the type of shells being used is just noise.

Know what you're saying.
BUT, Russian society have not seen young men being killed in significant numbers since Afghanistan. Russian society was far more accepting and under the boot back then.
Will they accept it now?

[Stumuz2]

It doesn't look good. Western response is pathetic. Sanctions, but not serious ones "because we've got to hold something back." Putin isn't scared.

Agree it's pathetic.

This is beginning to look like the start of WW3.

No it isn't. Long way to we get there.

[Stumuz2]

I regularly observe the prices and availability of these items on fleabay and elsewhere, not with the intention of buying any but simply for interest.

Thank you Adam.

[kenneal - lagger]

An anti tank round doesn't have to penetrate the armour of a tank. It is often a shaped charge which cups onto the armour, blows up and the explosion blows a wedge of red hot metal off the inside of the tank which then ricochets around the inside of the tank destroying everything within. Other anti tank rounds are in the form of a tungsten spike which drives into the armour and again blows off a wedge of metal from the inside.

This is why armoured vehicles have a mesh on the outside of the vehicle about 300mm from the armour plating in order to decouple any explosion from the armour plate. They will also have a multi layer armour to achieve the same end.

[Mark]

Stumuz,

1/. You stated that the EU only offered platitudes - incorrect again - they've imposed economic sanctions - what we can agree on is that they're too weak, but they're still stronger than the pathetically weak sanctions imposed by the (Brexit, taking back control) UK...
2/. The problem with dirty Russian money is far worse in the UK/London than anywhere else in the world
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... ian-money/
3/. I may be mistaken, but as far as I'm aware, nothing has flowed yet though Nord Stream 2, and the Germans have said that nothing will for the indefinite future. Agree that building it was a mistake.
4/. Unlike you, I don't think that being one of the world's major arms peddlers is anything for the UK to be proud of...
5/. Unlike you, I'm not happy to view Ukrainian/Russian deaths as perfect R&D for future peace keeping weapons...

6/. I'm just as worried as everyone else about the current situation.

[adam2]

"Russia launches major military assault in Ukraine" Some reports state that this is a full scale invasion.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60454795

[UndercoverElephant]

This is beginning to look like the start of WW3.

No it isn't. Long way to we get there.

Still think that?

[UndercoverElephant]

"Russia launches major military assault in Ukraine" Some reports state that this is a full scale invasion.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60454795

Yes, it is a full-scale invasion. They are going to try to take Kiev.

[Stumuz2]

This is beginning to look like the start of WW3.

No it isn't. Long way to we get there.

Still think that?

Yes. Absolutely.