Brexit process

[UndercoverElephant]

We are no closer to knowing where the hard border is going to be.

I think we're closer to knowing there won't be a hard boarder, in NI or the Irish sea.

In which case there is no point in the UK leaving the EU, and the tory brexiteers will be lining up to bring TM down.

[UndercoverElephant]

The story has changed. Apparently there is still no deal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42217735

TM is trying to convince the DUP and about 20 of her own MPs to accept whatever she's going to concede, and they aren't having it.

[Potemkin Villager]

We are no closer to knowing where the hard border is going to be.

I think we're closer to knowing there won't be a hard boarder, in NI or the Irish sea.

In which case there is no point in the UK leaving the EU, and the tory brexiteers will be lining up to bring TM down.

Maybe somebody could remind me what precisely it is believed will be achieved by leaving the EU? Maybe the dupers and the britexers should put their money where there big gobs are and do the deed. Then we could get on with second guessing the outcome of the resulting election.

[clv101]

TM is trying to convince the DUP and about 20 of her own MPs to accept whatever she's going to concede, and they aren't having it.

Indeed, it is bizarre that she hadn't already got the DUP's agreement for whatever she was taking to Brussels today.

I sounds like the DUP were out of the loop, which would be daft.

[UndercoverElephant]

TM is trying to convince the DUP and about 20 of her own MPs to accept whatever she's going to concede, and they aren't having it.

Indeed, it is bizarre that she hadn't already got the DUP's agreement for whatever she was taking to Brussels today.

I sounds like the DUP were out of the loop, which would be daft.

Yes. It was pretty obvious that the DUP were not going to accept what she's tried to agree, so you'd think they must have been in the loop and offered something pretty big to get them to agree. Or threatened with something pretty bad. But it sounds like she just didn't tell them.

And in fact it is even worse than that, because it looks like TM is trying to wallpaper over a logical problem with a "form of words" even though it cannot possibly work. It appears that she doesn't understand that she is faced with a logically impossible problem, even though everybody she's negotiating with does understand.

She is incompetent. She's making Trump look like a class act.

[UndercoverElephant]

I think we're closer to knowing there won't be a hard boarder, in NI or the Irish sea.

In which case there is no point in the UK leaving the EU, and the tory brexiteers will be lining up to bring TM down.

Maybe somebody could remind me what precisely it is believed will be achieved by leaving the EU? Maybe the dupers and the britexers should put their money where there big gobs are and do the deed.

Can only be done by Parliament.

[clv101]

To summarise, in order to avoid a hard border in both Ireland and between parts of UK , we need this alignment of regulation, otherwise known as staying in the SM / CU. If then we want to have influence over SM / CU rules we need to stay in EU.

Or we could reunify Ireland, which I think the Good Friday Agreement has provisions for if both the north and south call for it.

Or hard boarder in Ireland... Or the Irish sea.

Pick an option, any option, all have negative consequences.

[Little John]

To summarise, in order to avoid a hard border in both Ireland and between parts of UK , we need this alignment of regulation, otherwise known as staying in the SM / CU. If then we want to have influence over SM / CU rules we need to stay in EU.

Or we could reunify Ireland, which I think the Good Friday Agreement has provisions for if both the north and south call for it.

Or hard boarder in Ireland... Or the Irish sea.

Pick an option, any option, all have negative consequences.

No. There is not and will not be any hard border between parts of the UK. That is a bullshit Aunt Sally you have erected along with all of the rest of the traitors to this nation.

A territorial border will once again exist between the UK and the rest of the world and, to the extent the part of that border that adjoins Ireland will be hard, soft, or somewhere in between, is entirely a function of intransigence on the part of the EU and Irish governing class and the dirty games they are prepared to play.

Either way, the UK is leaving the EU.

ALL of the UK.

[johnhemming2]

A territorial border will once again exist between the UK and the rest of the world and, to the extent the part of that border that adjoins Ireland will be hard, soft, or somewhere in between, is entirely a function of intransigence on the part of the EU and Irish governing class and the dirty games they are prepared to play.

The common travel area has existed for a long time. I don't know how long, but probably longer than the life of anyone who reads this forum.

[UndercoverElephant]

Pick an option, any option, all have negative consequences.

As does staying in the EU.

TM has made a set of logically incompatible promises. She has to break one of them eventually, but instead of biting the bullet and breaking one of them now, she is apparently trying to pretend she can keep them all.

I do not understand this as a political strategy. It will not end well.

[Little John]

A territorial border will once again exist between the UK and the rest of the world and, to the extent the part of that border that adjoins Ireland will be hard, soft, or somewhere in between, is entirely a function of intransigence on the part of the EU and Irish governing class and the dirty games they are prepared to play.

The common travel area has existed for a long time. I don't know how long, but probably longer than the life of anyone who reads this forum.

And will continue to exist if:

(a) the EU does not insist on playing silly buggers in order for that freedom of movement of the Irish to remain in place

or

(b) Ireland chooses to leave the EU.

Either way the UK is leaving the EU.

[UndercoverElephant]

A territorial border will once again exist between the UK and the rest of the world and, to the extent the part of that border that adjoins Ireland will be hard, soft, or somewhere in between, is entirely a function of intransigence on the part of the EU and Irish governing class and the dirty games they are prepared to play.

The EU has no choice in this either. If there's no internal border in the UK then there cannot be a soft border between NI and the Republic unless the whole of the UK stays in the customs union.

There really are only two available outcomes:

(a) UK stays in the customs union, no hard border between NI and Republic
(b) UK leaves the customs union, hard border between NI and Republic

TM is apparently pursuing some sort of magical third option which is this:

(c) UK leaves the customs union, no hard border between NI and Republic, and the apparent contradiction is resolved by some yet-to-be-specified super-duper trade deal.

Only one problem with this plan: it's theoretically impossible, even if the EU had any intention of co-operating. The only trade deal that could allow the Irish border to stay open is one that involves the UK effectively remaining in the customs union.

or possibly:

(d) NI stays in the customs union, rest of UK leaves. The DUP will bring her down sooner than let that happen, it opens up a massive can of worms with SNP demands for the same deal, and her own MPs won't accept it.

What I do not understand is why TM is still pursuing this logically impossible goal. What is the point? All it does is delay the inevitable decision about who to betray, in a situation where time is not on her side.

She either has to admit that the UK is not going to leave the customs union either, or she must call Ireland's bluff and say there is going to be a hard border in Ireland after all.

[UndercoverElephant]

At least Rees-Mogg understands....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rder-issue

Rees-Mogg made clear that there could be no difference between different parts of the UK, but also that Britain as a whole needed to have the freedom to diverge from the EU on regulations after Brexit.

“We cannot align the regulation of one part of the United Kingdom with the European Union. If we align the whole of the United Kingdom then we haven’t left the European Union so there is a logical impossibility of doing what the Irish government proposes,� he told reporters after the meeting.

[clv101]

To summarise, in order to avoid a hard border in both Ireland and between parts of UK , we need this alignment of regulation, otherwise known as staying in the SM / CU. If then we want to have influence over SM / CU rules we need to stay in EU.

Or we could reunify Ireland, which I think the Good Friday Agreement has provisions for if both the north and south call for it.

Or hard boarder in Ireland... Or the Irish sea.

Pick an option, any option, all have negative consequences.

No. There is not and will not be any hard border between parts of the UK. That is a bullshit Aunt Sally you have erected along with all of the rest of the traitors to this nation.

It's not my erection! It's May's in saying Northern Ireland will remain in regulatory alignment with the EU!

[johnhemming2]

As does staying in the EU.

And what are those compared to what the government is actually proposing?