Iraq falling apart

[madibe]

To highlight how difficult it is to comprehend Islam from our viewpoint please see and explore the link below:

http://www.islamhelpline.net

I could bring your attention to this response to a question:

Wife refuses sex:

Answer:

If one finds oneself in a marriage where one’s wife is constantly disobedient to his lawful commands, Islam guides that before one contemplates separation through the lawful but detested option of divorce, one should try doing the following…..perchance the wife would fear Allah and amend her conduct and thus save the marriage:
Admonish the wife: Find a suitable opportunity, and with patience and above all wisdom, speak to one’s wife politely but firmly and admonish them to fear Allah and fulfill the rights that are due from a wife to a husband in marriage. If after one’s very best efforts, the wife still refuses to obey the lawful commands of her husband; then one has the option to take the next step before contemplating divorce….
Refuse to share the bed (conjugate or have sexual intercourse) with one’s wife for a period of time which will clearly signify to any intelligent and God-fearing wife the displeasure her conduct and her constant disobedience is causing her husband in marriage. If even after this step, the wife refuses to comply, Islam has given the option to the husband to lightly beat her to signify to his wife his severe displeasure of her constant disobedience. One should fear Allah their Lord and exercise this option as an absolute last resort if he sincerely believes that this light beating of disapproval will help save the marriage.

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[PS_RalphW]

We think of Buddhism as the peaceful religion, but there have been periods in Indian history when they became militant. The current dominant Buddhist cultures in Shri Lanka and Thailand are increasingly violent towards their Tamil and Muslim minorities. Religions are cultural institutions, and they evolve. It not always a case of growth to a more benign form, that smacks of a belief in the religion of progress. All institutions can evolve in more or less virulent ways, like diseases. If they become too benign they can be subsumed and lose all individual identity. UK Christianity is a bit like that - the religion barely exists except as part of British culture. A bit like mitochondria in a eukaryotic cell. Sometimes they become so virulent that they end up killing their host too quickly and become extinct. Muslim extremists in Algeria about 20 years ago.

Ultimately it is outside forces that control this process. If too many moderate Muslims end up being sat upon by outside cultures they will turn to more aggressive teachers. If those teachers are funded by oil rich Saudi Princes they can back up their teaching with benevolence.

The basic problem with all religions is that they require their followers to believe in the blatantly unreal, to suspend rational judgement, as a rite of passage. This is far easier when started at a very young age. The human mind is very malleable and it does not take long for someone so young to have invested so much emotional energy into ridiculous beliefs that they have to suppress reality by ever more extreme expressions of belief to protect themselves.

In that all religions , and many other institutions, are deeply dangerous.

[Blue Peter]

The basic problem with all religions is that they require their followers to believe in the blatantly unreal, to suspend rational judgement, as a rite of passage.

To provide an alternative point of view, religions deal with the fundamental, which are so fundamental that they cannot be referred to literally. Therefore, they are referred to metaphorically. My understanding is that the religious experience is radically empirical; however, for those who have not had the experience, the tendency is to take the metaphors as literal - which is obviously a mistake and gives rise to what you are talking about,


Peter.

[madibe]

No room for musicians under Sharia Law

Is it OK to listen to music?

Answer:

Beloved Sister, although the Quran is silent regarding the specific issue of indulging in illegal music, Allah Subhanah guides towards the general abstinence towards any and all vain, idle, futile, useless, fruitless, and worthless deeds and according to the guidance of the Messenger of Allah (saws) the indulging in illegal music is an absolutely useless deed and specifically prohibited.

The Prophet (saws) said, "Allah has sent me as a Mercy to the universe and as a guidance to the universe, and my Lord, Who is Great and Glorious, has commanded me to annihilate stringed instruments, wind instruments, idols, crosses and pre-Islamic customs."

[Little John]

No room for musicians under Sharia Law

Is it OK to listen to music?

Answer:

Beloved Sister, although the Quran is silent regarding the specific issue of indulging in illegal music, Allah Subhanah guides towards the general abstinence towards any and all vain, idle, futile, useless, fruitless, and worthless deeds and according to the guidance of the Messenger of Allah (saws) the indulging in illegal music is an absolutely useless deed and specifically prohibited.

The Prophet (saws) said, "Allah has sent me as a Mercy to the universe and as a guidance to the universe, and my Lord, Who is Great and Glorious, has commanded me to annihilate stringed instruments, wind instruments, idols, crosses and pre-Islamic customs."

Hang on, this is becoming bollocks.

I could just as easily pull as many equally loony passages from the bible.

They are all loony religions, as written down in their ancient holy books. You are not telling us anything special about the Quran save for the fact that some Islamic cultures still take it literally whereas most (though not all) Christian cultures do not take the bible so literally. Therefore, putting aside the essentially dangerously loony basis of all religious doctrine, you are in fact conflating a point about specific regressive contemporary cultures with a point about all ancient religious texts.

[UndercoverElephant]

No room for musicians under Sharia Law

Is it OK to listen to music?

Answer:

Beloved Sister, although the Quran is silent regarding the specific issue of indulging in illegal music, Allah Subhanah guides towards the general abstinence towards any and all vain, idle, futile, useless, fruitless, and worthless deeds and according to the guidance of the Messenger of Allah (saws) the indulging in illegal music is an absolutely useless deed and specifically prohibited.

The Prophet (saws) said, "Allah has sent me as a Mercy to the universe and as a guidance to the universe, and my Lord, Who is Great and Glorious, has commanded me to annihilate stringed instruments, wind instruments, idols, crosses and pre-Islamic customs."

Hang on, this is becoming bollocks.

I could just as easily pull as many equally loony passages from the bible.

They are all loony religions, as written down in their ancient holy books. You are not telling us anything special about the Quran save for the fact that some Islamic cultures still take it literally whereas most (though not all) Christian cultures do not take the bible so literally. Therefore, putting aside the essentially dangerously loony basis of all religious doctrine, you are in fact conflating a point about specific regressive contemporary cultures with a point about all ancient religious texts.

All religions are not equal. All religions are not equally loony, either. Where I agree with you is that certain passages in the Old Testament are every bit as loony/vicious as passages in the Quran.

[Little John]

No room for musicians under Sharia Law

Is it OK to listen to music?

Answer:

Beloved Sister, although the Quran is silent regarding the specific issue of indulging in illegal music, Allah Subhanah guides towards the general abstinence towards any and all vain, idle, futile, useless, fruitless, and worthless deeds and according to the guidance of the Messenger of Allah (saws) the indulging in illegal music is an absolutely useless deed and specifically prohibited.

The Prophet (saws) said, "Allah has sent me as a Mercy to the universe and as a guidance to the universe, and my Lord, Who is Great and Glorious, has commanded me to annihilate stringed instruments, wind instruments, idols, crosses and pre-Islamic customs."

Hang on, this is becoming bollocks.

I could just as easily pull as many equally loony passages from the bible.

They are all loony religions, as written down in their ancient holy books. You are not telling us anything special about the Quran save for the fact that some Islamic cultures still take it literally whereas most (though not all) Christian cultures do not take the bible so literally. Therefore, putting aside the essentially dangerously loony basis of all religious doctrine, you are in fact conflating a point about specific regressive contemporary cultures with a point about all ancient religious texts.

All religions are not equal. All religions are not equally loony, either. Where I agree with you is that certain passages in the Old Testament are every bit as loony/vicious as passages in the Quran.

I should have qualified that statement. I was really referring to the main monotheistic Abrahamic religions, all of which originated in that stony desert several thousand years back.

[UndercoverElephant]

The basic problem with all religions is that they require their followers to believe in the blatantly unreal, to suspend rational judgement, as a rite of passage.

To provide an alternative point of view, religions deal with the fundamental, which are so fundamental that they cannot be referred to literally. Therefore, they are referred to metaphorically. My understanding is that the religious experience is radically empirical; however, for those who have not had the experience, the tendency is to take the metaphors as literal - which is obviously a mistake and gives rise to what you are talking about,


Peter.

Yes.

[3rdRock]

Religion = Crowd Control.

Pure and simple.

[madibe]

Steve - I totally agree with you with it all being bollocks

Unfortunately Islam does not see it that way. And has no sense of humour regarding it.

However, my post regarding music and earlier, wife beating is NOT from some ancient text, but current advice given to practicing followers of Islam. Not an interpretation, but clear solid advice on how to proceed in the correct haalal (good and correct) way according to *current* doctrine.

We (the non Islamics), have little comprehension of what is involved in current practice and also little understanding of what it means to be a true follower of the commands of Allah and the teaching / messages of the prophets. Personal liberty does not feature.

This is why we should not be involved - not because of political issues, but because you can not deviate a follower's beliefs. It is complex as hell; but at the end of the day, they do truly believe that the perfumed paradise filled with willing virgins awaits those who follow the deen of Allah.

That is a mighty strong majik. It essentially means you are truly immortal - and therefore need no fear. This life is but a temporary place. The eternal paradise is much better.

The long and short is that those of Islam will readily lay down their life against any power / force that threatens their belief. How many westerners would nowadays offer themselves in a similar way? So. Militarily, we are forever screwed over there. Ditto for trying to win hearts and minds.

[UndercoverElephant]

Religion = Crowd Control.

Pure and simple.

I don't agree. This is not simple. You could fill a library with books worth reading about the origins, meaning and purpose of religions.

[biffvernon]

I was listening to something on the radio yesterday about someone who conned absurd amounts of money out of perfectly ordinary people on the premise that good things would happen if they sent her money in envelopes that would be hung on a trees in the DODGY TAX AVOIDERS Rainforest. They must have been crazy. About as crazy as all the billions of other people who believe in untrue stuff.

Nevertheless, I do think it worth pointing out that the vast majority of folk who follow the Islamic faith are decent, peaceful folk and should not be lumped in with the psychopaths.

[UndercoverElephant]

About as crazy as all the billions of other people who believe in untrue stuff.

Like Richard Dawkins, for example.

Nevertheless, I do think it worth pointing out that the vast majority of folk who follow the Islamic faith are decent, peaceful folk and should not be lumped in with the psychopaths.

Upon what do you base this opinion?

Unfortunately, in my experience those "liberal" or "moderate" muslims are far too quick to take offence when confronted with the truth about their nasty, unreformed mediaevil religion, and leap to its defence instead of challenging its current state.

Where is Islam's Martin Luther?

[vtsnowedin]

Sometime between the arrival of Europeans in North America 1620 plus or minus a decade or two and 1870 the majority opinion of the new arrivals became that "The only good Indian was a dead Indian"). Regrettably the western worlds opinion of Muslims may soon be the same.
This is not going to end well.

[Little John]

Sometime between the arrival of Europeans in North America 1620 plus or minus a decade or two and 1870 the majority opinion of the new arrivals became that "The only good Indian was a dead Indian"). Regrettably the western worlds opinion of Muslims may soon be the same.
This is not going to end well.

Yep.