A crisis in 3 easy steps... [Iran]

How will oil depletion affect the way we live? What will the economic impact be? How will agriculture change? Will we thrive or merely survive?

Moderator: Peak Moderation

fishertrop
Posts: 859
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Sheffield

Post by fishertrop »

MacG wrote: Nonono, I agree with the various pretexts to *initiate* an assault on Iran, but who -in their right minds- would pursue it considering the imediate consequences?
....
yesyesyes (:lol:)

I agree with everything you say, until:
The whole thing look like a hornets nest, and the only wise thing to do is to avoid poking poles into it.
Which for me is the crux - the fact that conflict with Iran would cause such a world crisis IS THE REASON TO DO IT.

Say the US tomorrow launched an all-out attack out of the blue, what effect would this have on world opinion? It would be very very bad, and the US public wouldn't like it either.

But say something happens - take your pick, an attack in the US blamed on iran, a US warship in iranian waters gets fired on, really you name it, think Gulf of Tonkin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Incident - and the US can use that to "legitimise" a response, even a small one like air strikes but builds into a bigger and bigger conflict, how would that look then?

Many people like us would see through such a cover-story, but it would suffice as a basis for heavy-spin which would offset world opinion.

The fact that this would make things so bad in the region and the world would then give the us FAR MORE leaverage to extend the conflict then it might have had otherwise.

They need the biggest, badest, crisis they can can in order to justify going further with the overall campaign.

Could the US occupy the oil-rich regions of Iran out of the blue? Maybe. Could they do this off the back of a full-blown world energy crisis with Iran openly turning off the oil......

The worse the crisis the further the US can go - and alas probably UK forces also :(
snow hope
Posts: 4101
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: outside Belfast, N Ireland

Post by snow hope »

Following on from what fishertrop has said, what else has the US to lose? In fact thinking about their financial situation and the trillions of dollars they now owe, the housing bubble which is about to burst, the oncoming recession/depression which is likely to result, the whole PO situation and the rising costs of energy in the last 12 months in the US, worsened by direct hit hurricaines, what other option do they really have!!

Attacking Iran and throwing the world into turmoil might be seen by some as a solution to unresolvable problems at home? :shock:

Heck, I hope I am wrong. :cry:
Real money is gold and silver
Joe
Posts: 596
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Leeds

Post by Joe »

snow hope wrote:Heck, I hope I am wrong.
Me too, but it sounds horribly, horribly plausible. It seems to me that "strong" action in Afghanistan & Iraq effectively got Bush in for a second term despite the faltering economy at home.
User avatar
RogerCO
Posts: 672
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Cornwall, UK

Post by RogerCO »

snow hope wrote:Attacking Iran and throwing the world into turmoil might be seen by some as a solution to unresolvable problems at home? :shock:
Heck, I hope I am wrong. :cry:
Well lets look at it the other way around. Suppose a US led coalition did stage manage a conflict in the ME. One benefit for them would be that it would stop the Chinese and Indians getting their hands on the oil. The oil would largely stay in the ground. US & UK still have some indigenous oil - probably enough for a crisis/war footing economy. By keping the rest of the world's hands off the ME oil that allows for a long (long long) term gameplan of winning control over the ME - possibly by then a largely depopulated nuclear desert, but with the oil still all in the ground - bingo another 50-60 years capacity for US (and some crumbs for their allies).

There is a view that one consequence of the first Iraq war and the throttling of Iraqui oil production for 10 years was to save some more oil for later (alright so the strategy might not have delivered yet...)
RogerCO
___________________________________
The time for politics is past - now is the time for action.
User avatar
RogerCO
Posts: 672
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Cornwall, UK

Post by RogerCO »

fishertrop wrote:Which for me is the crux - the fact that conflict with Iran would cause such a world crisis IS THE REASON TO DO IT.
And here's another way of looking at it...
From the point of view of someone in the west (US/EU) who is not entirely happy with the kind of consumerist controled society in which we find ourselves and seeks a more small-scale and humane form of civilization then there could be real opportunities in having the powers that be engender a world crisis - sieze the moment and use it to bring down the house of cards... BRING IT ON :twisted: :roll: :evil:
(which reminds me I need to reply to Blue Peter in the Govt & Society thread...dreckly)
RogerCO
___________________________________
The time for politics is past - now is the time for action.
User avatar
skeptik
Posts: 2969
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Costa Geriatrica, Spain

Post by skeptik »

RogerCO wrote: And here's another way of looking at it...
From the point of view of someone in the west (US/EU) who is not entirely happy with the kind of consumerist controled society in which we find ourselves and seeks a more small-scale and humane form of civilization then there could be real opportunities in having the powers that be engender a world crisis - sieze the moment and use it to bring down the house of cards... BRING IT ON :twisted: :roll: :evil:
And one way of looking at that sort of attitude is that anybody who even thinks that way could be regarded as an insane misanthropist, probably psychopathic.

One wonders how they envisage a 'world crisis' which 'brings down the house of cards' - I suppose it would be acceptable to them so long as all the dead people it would inevitably involve are anywhere other than in the UK...

There again... a few hundred million, or even a few billion dead people (so long as they mainly have dark skins) is a small price to pay to achieve 'a more small-scale and humane form of civilization' :twisted: :roll: :evil:
User avatar
RogerCO
Posts: 672
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Cornwall, UK

Post by RogerCO »

skeptik wrote:And one way of looking at that sort of attitude is that anybody who even thinks that way could be regarded as an insane misanthropist, probably psychopathic.
I imagine that the important thing for an insane psychopathic misantropist is her own survival :?
RogerCO
___________________________________
The time for politics is past - now is the time for action.
MacG
Posts: 2863
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Scandinavia

Post by MacG »

fishertrop wrote: Which for me is the crux - the fact that conflict with Iran would cause such a world crisis IS THE REASON TO DO IT.
Hehehe. You almost got me there. Almost got me depressed that is.

I still think it is to much of a can of worms. There are so many variables in the equation and so few fixed points. Nobody could predict the outcome, and people tend to avoid unpredictable situations.

OK, OK, there might be some delusioned people in or around the White House who actually BELIVE that they can contain things, but I dont think they will prevail.

Dammit, I refuse to belive that I can wake up one morning and hear about a dirty nuke going off in San Fransisco and someone looking like the president of Iran bragging about it in grainy newscasts....
MacG
Posts: 2863
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Scandinavia

Post by MacG »

skeptik wrote: And one way of looking at that sort of attitude is that anybody who even thinks that way could be regarded as an insane misanthropist, probably psychopathic.
Rude words! Go wash your mouth with soap! Or rather rinse your typing fingers with hydrochloric acid. That will teach you!
User avatar
skeptik
Posts: 2969
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Costa Geriatrica, Spain

Post by skeptik »

MacG wrote:
skeptik wrote: And one way of looking at that sort of attitude is that anybody who even thinks that way could be regarded as an insane misanthropist, probably psychopathic.
Rude words! Go wash your mouth with soap! Or rather rinse your typing fingers with hydrochloric acid. That will teach you!
Hmm...no. Think thats about right.
RogerCO wrote: imagine that the important thing for an insane psychopathic misantropist is her own survival
Oh yes. Absolutely. Over and above any other consideration.
fishertrop
Posts: 859
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Sheffield

Post by fishertrop »

RogerCO wrote: Well lets look at it the other way around. Suppose a US led coalition did stage manage a conflict in the ME. One benefit for them would be that it would stop the Chinese and Indians getting their hands on the oil.
I think China is a factor.

They lost out big-time in Iraq, the Russians also, when contracts they had with saddam were (of course) nullified, even if they had paid out for stuff.

China is a big customer of Iran, the obvious worry with this aspect is that China opts-in to defending it's friends in Iran :( :(
fishertrop
Posts: 859
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Sheffield

Post by fishertrop »

snow hope wrote: Heck, I hope I am wrong. :cry:
Me too.

I hope nothing in this thread comes true.

I see much that is plausable and much that is BAD, I hope nothing comes of any of it.
fishertrop
Posts: 859
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Sheffield

Post by fishertrop »

Blair links Iran to Iraq blasts
http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0, ... 09,00.html
Tony Blair today said new explosive devices used against British troops in Iraq were suspected to have come from "Iranian elements".
MacG
Posts: 2863
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Scandinavia

Post by MacG »

fishertrop wrote:I think China is a factor.

They lost out big-time in Iraq, the Russians also, when contracts they had with saddam were (of course) nullified, even if they had paid out for stuff.

China is a big customer of Iran, the obvious worry with this aspect is that China opts-in to defending it's friends in Iran :( :(
Both China and Russia is (litterally) within walking distance from the ME. What if the guys in Beijing decide to join the coalition fighting "terrorism"?

"We wholeheartedly agree with our American friends and will participate in the global fight against terrorism. To start with, we will send 5 million troops to help and assist our American brothers in bringing peace, order and civilian life back to Iraq. Troops will begin to arrive tomorrow and will be fully deployed in two weeks"

Amazing they have not done it already. 5 mil vs 140 000? Who got clout in such a fix? The guys in Beijing surely have the capacity to bloat the ME with troops. And they know the meaning of the word "stability"!
Joe
Posts: 596
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Leeds

Post by Joe »

fishertrop wrote:Blair links Iran to Iraq blasts
http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0, ... 09,00.html
Tony Blair today said new explosive devices used against British troops in Iraq were suspected to have come from "Iranian elements".
:cry: FFS. Will we never learn?
Post Reply