EU immigration row / time to get out

[jonny2mad]

It is very well moderated meaning you do a fine job

[SleeperService]

From what I've heard about WWII j2m's got a point. Though most Brits abhored the Nazis and Nazism, the feeling most definitely wasn't mutual: in Nazism's eyes, Brits were sort-of siblings-in-white-ness. There was a plan to govern the UK from Germany via a puppet type arrangement, with Germany ruling continental Europe and Britain keeping the Empire. They allegedly even found the puppet: he was Lord Halifax and he (well, his estate) lives just down the road from here (disclaimer: he probably politely declined!)

Actually that isn't true. Recent research in the Russian archives of captured German documents suggest as very different story. To put this into context Himmler was nominally in charge of what became the 'Final Solution' and the 'Death Camps' didn't get going until later than the period mentioned.

The panzers halt at Dunkirk was down to two things, Goring was confident his Luftwaffe could finish the job and wanted to grab some glory from the French Campaign, he persuaded Hitler to let him have a go firmly expecting only token resistance from the RAF. Otherwise the Panzers had all but run out of supplies (again) and were waiting for the supply train to catch up as well as the infantry that they knew would be needed to clear the beachhead. The reason for their running out of supplies was excellent rearguard work organised and commanded by some geezer named Montgomery.

At the time there was a slogan 'Himmler's brain is Heydrich' and it was he who made the plans for the Third Reich's unwanted citizens. His plan was to set up concentration camps across the UK where targetted groups would be contained, given subsistence rations they would be worked to death, after the Jews, Gypsies, Negroes, Slavs, criminals,socialists and members of the government not trusted were processed the general population would be targeted. They would get looked after reasonably well while they could work then off to the camps again. This was the model he used in Czechoslovakia which worked so well that the Czech companies were more efficient than German ones. The British knew they had to get rid of him so did. IIRC the UK would have 20~25 camps based around rail centres. The Royal Navy would become German (the surrender of the Fleet in 1918 was the equivalent of the French Railway carriage) and the Empire would be carved up.

In the end the reducing British population would be replaced by a growing German immigrant population, the UK would have been an agricultural supply to Germany with little industry apart from mineral extraction. Nazi BigWigs would have estates and Hitler envisaged a more or less Medieval landscape. The major cities would have been obliterated.

Most of this has been picked up by historical authors both fact and fiction. Rumour is that Prof Kershaw is working on a book at the moment.

[biffvernon]

Yes, though I don't suppose j2m would accept that reading of history. Anyway, it's all in the past, whereas the plight of Syrian refugees is in the present and there will be many more refugees in the future, resulting directly or indirectly from global warming, who should to be dealt with with the compassion that establishes our civilised humanity.

[jonny2mad]

so we are to believe Russian documents they say they captured from the Germans, hmmm would they have any reason to hmmm lie .

And god knows the uk would never lie that’s unthinkable, we wouldn’t cover up something like the katyn massacre and blame it on those awful Nazis, when it was actually the lovely soviets your trusting now that murdered the entire polish office corp., 22,000 people. tortured the hell out of them then took them in a room and shot them in the head .



When you look at world war two remember your reading not history but victors history

Biff we would show we were civilised if we looked after our own people instead of strangers.

[biffvernon]

Biff we would show we were civilised if we looked after our own people instead of strangers.

That rather neatly illustrates the difference between us. I regard the mark of our humanity and civilisation as our ability to have compassion for strangers. All sorts of animals look after their own kith but it takes a civilised human to stick up for another that they will never know or meet.

[woodburner]

While neglecting our own people? Or is this only distance support you are offering?

[biffvernon]

While neglecting our own people?

I don't own any people, but people should not be neglected wherever they are. There seem to be a lot of neglected Syrians just now.

[emordnilap]

There are some people here in these islands living in horrendous conditions; they are far better off than countless millions elsewhere.

[jonny2mad]

Biff we would show we were civilised if we looked after our own people instead of strangers.

That rather neatly illustrates the difference between us. I regard the mark of our humanity and civilisation as our ability to have compassion for strangers. All sorts of animals look after their own kith but it takes a civilised human to stick up for another that they will never know or meet.

From a evolutionary point of view the people who care more about strangers than kin are putting their kin at a disadvantage, its a crazy thing to do .
Can you understand that birds who adopt cuckoo chicks are really silly birds?
or are they showing their civilisation .

[SleeperService]

Actually j2m I do trust the sources. The documents are, as far as can be ascertained, genuine GERMAN records, NOT Soviet reports. Similar incomplete records in the UK and US confirm the content where possible. Katyn Wood was known to be down to the Soviets during WW2 this news was suppressed to keep the fragile Alliance with the Soviets intact, it was then suppressed to use in bargaining if the Soviets didn't abide by the Yalta agreement. After it was kept quiet 'just in case it became useful'. Revealing it would have meant revealing Ultra and Enigma. We decided not to do that.

My view is that in any group there are good'uns and bad'uns that even applies to Saints Lucifer?? This diversity is one of humanity's great strengths.

The Poles at Katyn were killed on the spot in small groups usually by a pistol or rifle round to the head, the tortured Poles must have been buried elsewhere as the Germans found no evidence and, if they had, Goebbels would have made sure the world knew.

Generally we do read only the victor's history, however our current relative freedom means such BS is countered by other views. Look how quickly the UK Iraq-gate charade was exposed.

I accept you have a different view than me but it's the way of things.

[biffvernon]

the people who care more about strangers than kin are putting their kin at a disadvantage, its a crazy thing to do .

I have never said anything about caring for strangers more than caring for kin. Just that caring for strangers is a mark of civilised humanity.

In my particular case, my own kin are usually pretty good at caring for themselves so I don't worry about them overmuch.

[jonny2mad]

Actually j2m I do trust the sources. The documents are, as far as can be ascertained, genuine GERMAN records, NOT Soviet reports. Similar incomplete records in the UK and US confirm the content where possible. Katyn Wood was known to be down to the Soviets during WW2 this news was suppressed to keep the fragile Alliance with the Soviets intact, it was then suppressed to use in bargaining if the Soviets didn't abide by the Yalta agreement. After it was kept quiet 'just in case it became useful'. Revealing it would have meant revealing Ultra and Enigma. We decided not to do that.

My view is that in any group there are good'uns and bad'uns that even applies to Saints Lucifer?? This diversity is one of humanity's great strengths.

The Poles at Katyn were killed on the spot in small groups usually by a pistol or rifle round to the head, the tortured Poles must have been buried elsewhere as the Germans found no evidence and, if they had, Goebbels would have made sure the world knew.

Generally we do read only the victor's history, however our current relative freedom means such BS is countered by other views. Look how quickly the UK Iraq-gate charade was exposed.

I accept you have a different view than me but it's the way of things.

These are typewritten I imagine german reports consider now the russians captured the typewriters and paper as well as lots of germans who could write whatever they wanted nah the soviet union wouldnt do that

And hmmm I think world war two is on a slightly different level to Iraq. I mean we are still jailing people who disagree with the official history of world war two nearly 70 years after the end of that war, the germans even jail their defence lawyers .


If these documents were faked by the soviets it would call into question other documents .


you had british members of the Waffen SS if the germans wanted to destroy us all why would they accept brits into the SS.

Nothing that Ive read about the nazis and their view of the world makes me think the uk would have been a target, if we had not declared war on them .

They were racists and to them we were possibly their nearest relative, and when I hear that they planned to murder us all even if we had stayed out of the war I kinda think thats unlikely.

[jonny2mad]

the people who care more about strangers than kin are putting their kin at a disadvantage, its a crazy thing to do .

I have never said anything about caring for strangers more than caring for kin. Just that caring for strangers is a mark of civilised humanity.

In my particular case, my own kin are usually pretty good at caring for themselves so I don't worry about them overmuch.

At the moment 84,900 households (which may contain more than one person) that are classified as homeless http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/90 ... er-2071049

And yet the uk sends billions abroad, they also send thousands of aid workers to build schools dig wells in africa etc etc .
We even give millions to countrys like pakistan and india to look after their poor while they spend billions on nuclear weapons programmes .

Now if we stopped all that sick making paternalism and started dealing with our own problems we could sort out uk homelessness over night .

[woodburner]

But then you couldn't say "Toe the line,or that could be you". Governments always ensure some poverty to keep an appropriate level of fear in the general population.

[biffvernon]

Now if we stopped all that sick making paternalism and started dealing with our own problems we could sort out uk homelessness over night .

The trouble is, j2m, we are operating in different paradigms. When you say 'we' and 'our own' you are talking about a small group of people on a small island off the NW coast of Europe, arbitrarily defined by accidents of history and geography.

When I use those words I have a wider constituency in mind. 'We' often includes all humans and may even extend to all life, depending upon the context of the discussion.

I don't always agree with Archbishop Nichols but his latest intervention is on the right path: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013 ... on-targets

Other EU citizens are free to come and live in the UK with spouses from outside the EU. And yet British citizens do not enjoy the same rights. The feeling of being victimised by one's own government is a bitter pill to swallow. Other EU citizens are free to come and live in the UK with spouses from outside the EU. And yet British citizens do not enjoy the same rights. The feeling of being victimised by one's own government is a bitter pill to swallow.