Greece Watch...

[Aurora]

BBC News - 03/03/12

Moody's has cut Greece's credit rating again, citing a risk of default despite a recent debt write-off deal.

Moody's cut Greece's rating to "C" from "Ca", the lowest level on its scale.

The firm said on Friday: "Today's rating decision was prompted by the recently announced debt exchange proposals for Greece, which imply expected losses to investors in excess of 70%."

The deal writes off 107bn euros ($141.3bn; £89bn) of Greece's debt.

Moody's said the planned debt exchange, which involves private investors of Greek debt writing off much of the 206bn euros in Greek bonds they hold, "would constitute a distressed exchange, and hence a default".

Article continues ...

[energy-village]

With what's happening in Greece right now, the best solution for the Greek people is an outright socialist revolution in order that their democratic will to be obeyed by their state.

Is socialism in just one country possible? I'm doubtful, particularly in these interconnected days, with ferocious predators all around.

Greece will never be allowed to poison the world with absolute default, anti-globalisation and socialism. Can't risk those things catching on.

Anything is possible.

We constantly get told all sorts of shit is impossible until, sudennly, it is.

At which point everyone wonders why the hell it didn't happen sooner. After all, there's millions of us and only a few hundred of them.

All it takes is for enough people to get sufficiently desperate that they begin to realise they have nothing left to lose. The Greeks are just a little closer to that point than the rest of us.

For the moment....

I agree when a critical mass of people reach desperation other options will appear but right now we are still at the shopping, reality TV, iPods, bread and circuses stage.

[biffvernon]

Radio 4 just now talking of the Greek debt, the problem kicked a little down the road, Ed asks "What's the alternative?" Louise replies with a sigh that speaks volumes. Worth a listen, about 17.20.

[frank_begbie]

Radio 4 just now talking of the Greek debt, the problem kicked a little down the road, Ed asks "What's the alternative?" Louise replies with a sigh that speaks volumes. Worth a listen, about 17.20.

22 mins.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... 9_03_2012/

"You've been out doomed!"

[biffvernon]

That's the spot. Excellent bit of radio.

[UndercoverElephant]

Radio 4 just now talking of the Greek debt, the problem kicked a little down the road, Ed asks "What's the alternative?" Louise replies with a sigh that speaks volumes. Worth a listen, about 17.20.

22 mins.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... 9_03_2012/

"You've been out doomed!"

Yep, the truth will out eventually.

[UndercoverElephant]

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/88076322/

March 9 (Bloomberg) -- Greece’s use of collective action clauses forcing investors to take losses under the nation’s debt restructuring will trigger payouts on $3 billion of default insurance, the International Swaps & Derivatives Association said. A total 4,323 credit-default swap contracts can now be settled after ISDA’s determinations committee ruled the use of CACs is a restructuring credit event. Michael McKee and Sara Eisen report on Bloomberg Television's "Bottom Line." (Source: Bloomberg)

CDS event triggered.

[biffvernon]

Seems some folk have given up on the whole money thing in Greece and are just getting on with life.

In recent weeks, Theodoros Mavridis has bought fresh eggs, tsipourou (the local brandy: beware), fruit, olives, olive oil, jam, and soap. He has also had some legal advice, and enjoyed the services of an accountant to help fill in his tax return.

None of it has cost him a euro, because he had previously done a spot of electrical work – repairing a TV, sorting out a dodgy light – for some of the 800-odd members of a fast-growing exchange network...

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/03/16/g ... t-economy/

[woodburner]

Over here the HMRC would class that as "benefit in kind" and tax it. Most of us are likely to die sometime, the other certainty is TAXES! (Unless you are Vodafone, Tesco, Boots, Goldman Sachs, et al.

[biffvernon]

If you set up a Timebank you don't get taxed - the HMRC have been quite clear about that.

[woodburner]

They haven't been clear enough that I could find a link to such a ruling. Do you have one?

[Little John]

If you set up a Timebank you don't get taxed - the HMRC have been quite clear about that.

If they've ruled it out, it will only be because it is economically insignificant in terms of the economy as a whole. As soon as such behaviour represents a significant part of the economy, the rules will change, as sure as night follows day.

[biffvernon]

Yes that's part of it but also because Timebanks perform a social function, relieving Social Services and other government agencies of some work. It's all a Big Society type thing but actually does some really useful work in some places.

[Little John]

Yes that's part of it but also because Timebanks perform a social function, relieving Social Services and other government agencies of some work. It's all a Big Society type thing but actually does some really useful work in some places.

Oh, I completely agree. Such schemes are fantastic and are a means by which communities can re-cohere. The problem is that the state will only allow such schemes to operate just so long as they don't make any actual signioficant material difference to the economic lives of the people as a whole. As soon as they do make a difference, you can be sure the state is going to want its cut of the action. However, since such schemes would be extrordinarily difficult to tax in the normal way (ie. via the medium of FIAT), the state will do what it always does with human behaviour it cannot easily control.

It will ban it.

[woodpecker]

Some countries are starting to introduce bans on cash payments over a certain value. The idea seems to be to stamp on the black economy.