Peak Oil and 911

Forum for general discussion of Peak Oil / Oil depletion; also covering related subjects

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Bozzio
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Post by Bozzio »

Tess wrote:fallacious argument: Appeal to majority. Nil points! You won't convince people with that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_belief
OK, now turn this argument on its head and ask the question, is the official 9/11 story correct just because we have all seen it on TV and our rulers state that it was carried out by terrorists? The strength in the official story is based on the fact that the masses have been converted? Isn't this a fallacious argument also and in which case why are we asking people to sign our PO petition if majority counts for nothing?

You can't apply one rule Tess then expect it stand in all cases. Because you are in the majority it does not necessarily make you right either.
andyh
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Post by andyh »

You guys are assuming I havent looked at 'the evidence' as you put it. I did, around 16 months ago, shortly after I became very interested in peak oil.

I looked at the 'evidence', found none of it remotely convincing and have dismissed it. Your definitions of 'open mind' seem to be restricted to those of you who believe the theories. That is an odd way of looking at things.

In contrast I looked at the peak oil problem, and became convinced. Does that mean I have a 'half opened mind'?

Though perhaps I have to re-analyse my support of peak oil theory. Silverharps revelation that Colin Campbell is himself an acolyte of these theories is profoundly depressing :( .. :(
MacG
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Post by MacG »

andyh wrote:You guys are assuming I havent looked at 'the evidence' as you put it. I did, around 16 months ago, shortly after I became very interested in peak oil.
I have seen people use the word "evidence" regarding unanswered questions in the 9/11 mess, and I think it's sloppy. I'm pretty sure I've never resorted to such language myself. The correct term should be "unanswered questions".

The perfect free fall collapse of WTC7 in it's own footprint is, for example, a nagging unanswered question.
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EmptyBee
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Post by EmptyBee »

andyh wrote:You guys are assuming I havent looked at 'the evidence' as you put it. I did, around 16 months ago, shortly after I became very interested in peak oil.

I looked at the 'evidence', found none of it remotely convincing and have dismissed it. Your definitions of 'open mind' seem to be restricted to those of you who believe the theories. That is an odd way of looking at things.

In contrast I looked at the peak oil problem, and became convinced. Does that mean I have a 'half opened mind'?

Though perhaps I have to re-analyse my support of peak oil theory. Silverharps revelation that Colin Campbell is himself an acolyte of these theories is profoundly depressing :( .. :(
Considering your sum total response to this thread has consisted of little but pejoratives and ad hominems I think we could be forgiven for assuming your position was one of knee-jerk dismissiveness. Hardly evidence of an open mind on the issue, past or present.

As for Colin Campbell, I think it's clear his position on 9/11 and Iraq/The War on Terror is partially a result of his contact with Mike Ruppert. Campbell recommends Crossing the Rubicon in Oil Crisis: the revised version of The Coming Oil Crisis published last year.
If you take the position that Ruppert is a dangerous nut then I suppose that's a reason to be disappointed. However it's quite clear that Colin Campbell sees Peak Oil as immensely threatening to business as usual in banking, finance and our whole economic model. If you appreciate that Peak Oil represents more of a threat to our society than can be remedied by switching from fossil fuels to renewables then government conspiracies to precipitate sequential war for the control of the world's oil and gas reserves don't seem so improbable.
andyh
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Post by andyh »

EB - I think I'll leave you to your own little universe on this one. It is clearly inconceviable to you that someone could review the 'evidence' and come to an opposite view to your own. I must try your line of arguement on others; something along the lines of ' you have an open mind if you agree with me, but a closed mind if you dont'. Having spent half my life as a scientist I can honestly say that particular line of thought wouldnt have got me very far. Vive la difference.
Bozzio
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Post by Bozzio »

andyh wrote:EB - I think I'll leave you to your own little universe on this one. It is clearly inconceviable to you that someone could review the 'evidence' and come to an opposite view to your own. I must try your line of arguement on others; something along the lines of ' you have an open mind if you agree with me, but a closed mind if you dont'. Having spent half my life as a scientist I can honestly say that particular line of thought wouldnt have got me very far. Vive la difference.
Andy,

No one is criticizing your opinion. If you prefer to believe the official story then that is fine, but to come on here and attack others and this thread, suggesting with some menace that it be removed, suggests that you cannot yourself allow others to think differently. Pot, kettle and black come to mind.

I always think it is a shame when intelligent people post highly critical comments and then accuse the authors of the subsequent replies of having inferior minds. Personally I find that sort of behaviour to be highly immature. Ever considered accepting a role in the US administration Andy? I think your intolerence of other people's views would be much appreciated.
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Post by andyh »

Bozzio why am I not surprised by your reply? I'll leave it at a :lol:
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EmptyBee
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Post by EmptyBee »

andyh wrote:EB - I think I'll leave you to your own little universe on this one. It is clearly inconceviable to you that someone could review the 'evidence' and come to an opposite view to your own. I must try your line of arguement on others; something along the lines of ' you have an open mind if you agree with me, but a closed mind if you dont'. Having spent half my life as a scientist I can honestly say that particular line of thought wouldnt have got me very far. Vive la difference.
On the contrary, if you actually read what I've posted in this thread you'll see that I have myself wrestled with what seemed to me an utterly implausible scenario on the surface. And certainly, if you only deal with the superficial details of the events as commonly received it's difficult to accept the possibility of a conspiracy.

Now in light of Peak Oil, such a conspiracy suddenly became thinkable to me. In the sense that there was, I believe, an urgent need to address this problem. From the perspective of someone like Cheney - a businessman, I think it's difficult to appreciate just how threatening Peak Oil must be to them. There's an interesting document in which Cheney made a speech to the London Institute of Petroleum, in his capacity as CEO of Haliburton, about the challenge to find enough oil to meet demand in the coming years, especially in light of oil depletion.
Cheney in 1999 wrote: Every year you've got to find and develop reserves equal to your output just to stand still, just to stay even...A newly merged company like Exxon-Mobil will have to secure over a billion and a half barrels of new oil equivalent reserves every year just to replace existing production...
For the world as a whole, oil companies are expected to keep finding and developing enough oil to offset our 71 million-plus barrel a day of oil depletion, but also to meet new demand. By some estimates there will be an average of two percent annual growth in global oil demand over ther years ahead along with conseratively a three percent natural decline in production from existing reserves. That means by 2010 we will need on the order of an additional 50 million barrels a day...So where is that oil going to come from?

***
Oil is unique in that it is strategic in nature. We are not talking about soapflakes or leisurewear here. Energy is truly fundamental to the world's economy. The Gulf War was a reflection of that reality.
Now however hard you might find it to accept that 9/11 may have involved government complicity on some level, I think you'll be hard pressed to argue that the strategic imperative to expand US influenence in South West Asia could not have influenced foreign policy in the Bush-Cheney goverment in light of the above statement.

I think it would have been next to impossible to generate public acceptance for an overtly imperialistic foreign policy without some external threat, real or imagined. It's obvious (to me at least) that 9/11 provided the catalyst for current policy, and that such a policy would have been impossible to implement in its absence. That alone (in my mind) provides sufficient reason to be suspicious of the official version of events on 9/11.

But if you're still incredulous I can't say I blame you.
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RogerCO
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Post by RogerCO »

It is profoundly depressing that this is such an active thread.

Look guys, it seems to me that it really doesn't matter what was behind the events of 11/9/2001 any more - the caravan has moved on.

The focus on picking over the bones of this is extremely unhelpful, you are all getting tunnel vision.

It reminds me of when I had to visit N.Ireland for the first time on quasi govt business in the early 90s and encountered these people talking about events that had happened 60 years before they were born as if it was of real personal importance to themsleves and had happened yesterday (and events 400 years earlier as if they had living relevance to today) - I realised that while people were thinking like that there was no possible development, or even communication.

This thread is a discredit to Powerswitch and the excellent discussion and information elsewhere on the site. I propose that the thread be deleted together with any future discussion of 11/9 - take it away to one of the plethora of navel gazing conspiracy nutter sites that are out there and stop polluting the air in here. [/rant]

(BTW as it happens I think there probably was some kind of ulterior motive behind some of the events, a passenger jet probably didn't hit the pentagon, WTC7 probably was assisted in its collapse - but so what)(please please don't answer that question here, I've ignored the thread)
RogerCO
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The time for politics is past - now is the time for action.
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EmptyBee
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Post by EmptyBee »

Fine, delete this thread. Make 9/11 a banned topic. That might turn less people off the site but it won't stop 9/11 being profoundly relevant to geopolitics and Peak Oil. But I suppose we can all agree to shut up about it for the sake of the site. Personally I thought it was better off hidden in the Iran thread, where it started. :D

The reason this topic has generated a long and active thread is that it's something we disagree on. When it comes to oil depletion and its implications we're pretty much on the same page so the majority of the threads are uncontroversial echo-chambers as we're generally preaching to the choir.

The world of international relations experienced a paradigm shift on 9/11. We are all living in the post-9/11 world and will continue to for the foreseeable future, just as events in 1690 or 1916 continue to cast a long shadow in Ireland.

If you were to ask any American or Brit to rank the threats of terrorism, climate change, epidemic disease and oil depletion in order of urgency - how will they respond? For how many people is Peak Oil even on the radar? I will grant that an increasing number of well informed people have at least now heard of Peak Oil, but whether they consider it something they should be actually doing something about is another matter. This is what I find profoundly depressing; that we have, collectively no coherent idea of what is actually important in the world today, and a large part of that is down to the quality of information people are getting from the people we have empowered to set the agenda.
andyh
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Post by andyh »

'This thread is a discredit to Powerswitch and the excellent discussion and information elsewhere on the site. I propose that the thread be deleted together with any future discussion of 11/9 - take it away to one of the plethora of navel gazing conspiracy nutter sites that are out there and stop polluting the air in here'.

Careful Roger; you'll be accused of being a CIA operative if you keep on like that............ :lol: :lol:
Bozzio
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Post by Bozzio »

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it."
Albert Einstein

This thread should not be deleted since it is directly relevant to PO.

9/11 remains the primary reason behind the current resource wars. That is not old news, but current news.

I wonder whether we should ban any study of history going by what RogerCo says. Mind you, it's strange that Roger has said anything at all given that he has stated he is ignoring the thread. Even stranger when you consider he also believes the official story is a lie. Is this a case of double standards?
Last edited by Bozzio on 28 Feb 2006, 08:17, edited 2 times in total.
Koba
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Post by Koba »

To those of you that want this subject to be banned I have just a few things to say to you "Stop reading this thread" if you don't like the subject matter don't read it.

You may think the subject of 911 should be reserved for the nut house but a lot of people don't judging by the amount of responses on this thread.

Just remember a lot of people out there think that the subject of Peak Oil is just another nut house conspiracy, does that mean this site should be deleted?

You people are really getting on my nerves, who the hell are you to say what people should talk about!
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but the conquest of it"
andyh
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Post by andyh »

If Damian B (the site admin bod no less) can describe the 911 stuff as 'crap' as in:

'I've split the 911 crap off the Iran/Uranium thread and would be grateful if the two posts above could be modified if necessary and tacked on the end of that one so that I can delete this one''.

back in November, why is it still on this website? If you lot want to nurdle on about 911 by all means do it, but do it on a website that deals in that sort of stuff. There is by all accounts plenty to choose from and all provide the necessary reassurance you chaps seem to need. As I said its hard enough getting folk to come and read this website without them then coming up against threads which many view as coming from the lunatic fringe.......
Bozzio
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Post by Bozzio »

andyh wrote:If Damian B (the site admin bod no less) can describe the 911 stuff as 'crap' as in:

'I've split the 911 crap off the Iran/Uranium thread and would be grateful if the two posts above could be modified if necessary and tacked on the end of that one so that I can delete this one''.

back in November, why is it still on this website?
This quote from Jan/Feb relates to a different thread containing references to 9/11 which was ultimately deleted by Damian (I think). The modifications have now led to this thread which remains in place.

Not all people see the connection between PO and 9/11 as being crap or a top shelf issue. Major peakniks such as Mike Ruppert, Colin Campbell, Matt Savinar and Richard Heinberg all take the view that the two are linked. Since we choose to discuss all aspects of PO on this forum, 9/11 should have its place. I'm sorry if you don't like it.
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