Algae fuel?

Mark · Post by **Mark** » 26 Nov 2008, 12:58

Irish firm looks to make fuel from algae:
http://www.edie.net/news/news_story.asp?id=15647

Irish alternate energy and waste company NTR has entered into a partnership to carry out research and development into making fuel out of algae.

NTR has teamed up with North American-based ethanol business, Green Plains Renewable Energy, in a bid to progress their commitment towards next generation biofuels.

The joint venture has been called BioProcess Algae LLC and will revolve around carrying out research and development into the commercialisation of algae production.

Jim Barry, the chief executive of NTR, said: "While it is at a formative stage, we see this venture as being an important commitment on our part to advancing understanding of the possibilities of commercial production of algae as an alternative biofuel and as a carbon sequestration agent."

Wayne Hoovestol, chief executive of Green Plains, added: "Algae is potentially a by-product of ethanol that makes the process cleaner and greener through carbon sequestration."

NTR was founded in 1978 to develop and operate Ireland's first toll road and has grown to become involved in renewable energy and sustainable waste management.

Mark · Post by **Mark** » 12 Jan 2009, 11:18

A US airline has completed the first test flight of a plane partly powered by biofuel derived from algae:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7817849.stm

Things seem to be moving on at quite a pace........

Hairyloon · Post by **Hairyloon** » 12 Jan 2009, 12:21

Ted wrote:The US have been researching this for at least 30 years and there are a few start-ups there, and in the Netherlands, that are just beginning to get going on a commercial scale now.

Part of the problem (as I understand) in the US is that most of the fleet is petrol powered, algae is easily converted to diesel, but not so easily petrol.
Also they have a powerful lobby from oil, and also from grain (->bioethanol fuel).

There are in many places problems with algal blooms. What I think is we need is some means of hoovering up these blooms, so they can be used as fuel.
This would also open up the prospect of free-range algae farming out in the open ocean, much of which is largely unproductive. This would probably have the knock on effect of improving the fisheries.

algae wrote:Given that the successful production of algae fuels are so reliant on the sun, can it be done commercially in the UK?

There are two tiny flaws that I can see in your business idea:
1) It's in Britain, and
2) It's in Britain... ooh, hang on, I've got a third:
3) It's in Britain.

Aside from that, it is a superb idea, count me in.

Being a bit more specific, the problems are: British weather, British land prices, and British work ethic.

Would it not make more sense to buy land in Spain or somewhere like?
It's a lot cheaper, and not really that far away.

Andy Hunt · Post by **Andy Hunt** » 12 Jan 2009, 12:42

Hi Hairyloon, and welcome to the forum!!

Hairyloon · Post by **Hairyloon** » 12 Jan 2009, 13:10

Andy Hunt wrote:Hi Hairyloon, and welcome to the forum!!

Hi Andy & thanks.
I'd forgotten that was my first post here. Not the sanest introduction I don't suppose.
Ah well, may as well start as we mean to go on.

Andy Hunt · Post by **Andy Hunt** » 13 Jan 2009, 09:53

Hairyloon wrote:Not the sanest introduction I don't suppose.
Ah well, may as well start as we mean to go on.

I think you're going to feel right at home here.

IanG · Post by **IanG** » 13 Jan 2009, 10:59

Hi Hairy,
Well come to the forum.
Sorry, gonna start with an argument

Hairyloon wrote:What I think is we need is some means of hoovering up these blooms, so they can be used as fuel.

er,, no!

The oceans currently soak up 90% of all the carbon that gets put into the atmosphere. The other 10% is man's contribution, which is in addition to the natural cycle which we've been contributing to since the industrial revolution.

As the sea temperature rises the oceans are becoming more acidic and its predicted that the algae will suffer. Algae is the bottom of the food chain, any change to it will have dramatic consequences.

If your arguement was , lets create more algae, in a sustainable way, then maybe, but the oil industry will just hoover as much as is demanded.

Transport, needs to be based on electrification, with the true cost (including all externalities factored in - carbon pricing) A stag do to Prague on a plane flown on algae fuel would still be an environmental crime.

Hairyloon · Post by **Hairyloon** » 13 Jan 2009, 14:04

IanG wrote:Hi Hairy,
Well come to the forum.
Sorry, gonna start with an argument

Jolly good.

Hairyloon wrote:What I think is we need is some means of hoovering up these blooms, so they can be used as fuel.
er,, no!

The oceans currently soak up 90% of all the carbon that gets put into the atmosphere. The other 10% is man's contribution, which is in addition to the natural cycle which we've been contributing to since the industrial revolution.

Er.. yes, your point (relevant in the context) is?
The fact is that bad farming on land leads to nutrient run-off to the sea, which causes the algae to grow to the extent where it self shades and dies, then the decomposition uses up the oxygen, and everything else in the area dies.
I'm suggesting we deal with this problem by harvesting it before it kills everything.
Granted, it would be better to farm better, and not have the run-off; and they have cracked down so the problem is not as bad as it has been, but it still happens.

As the sea temperature rises the oceans are becoming more acidic and its predicted that the algae will suffer. Algae is the bottom of the food chain, any change to it will have dramatic consequences.

In the beginning, there was no free oxygen in the atmosphere, it was all locked up in CO2; the oceans were very acidic.
There may be a shift in the dominant algae species, but they'll handle it.
Everything further up the food chain will eat the other algae just as happily.

If your arguement was , lets create more algae, in a sustainable way, then maybe, but the oil industry will just hoover as much as is demanded.

I said farming, I may be old fashioned, but in my book farming includes the husbandry of the land (or in this case the sea).

Transport, needs to be based on electrification, with the true cost (including all externalities factored in - carbon pricing) A stag do to Prague on a plane flown on algae fuel would still be an environmental crime.

But it would be fine in an electric plane? Bonkers.
It is precisely that attitude which is going to leave us all screwed.
The only hope for the future is if we can get the mainstream on board, and you're not going to do that by preaching yoghurt weaving idealism.

IanG · Post by **IanG** » 13 Jan 2009, 14:57

who said electric plane?

Trains run on electricity?

It is precisely that attitude which is going to leave us all screwed.

No the attitude that cheap flights, and carrying on like we have over the last 40 years is sustainable, if only we can invent another way eg rape the sea to create fuel, is the attitude that going to lead to us being screwed

The only hope for the future is if we can get the mainstream on board, and you're not going to do that by preaching yoghurt weaving idealism

Thanks for the insult, but
1) I think you miss understand my point.
2) If we need to wait until we can convince the mainstream, then we're screwed. Because 5 million Sun readers aren't going to vote to cancel their Costa del Sol holidays

We need political leadership that will understand the complex and difficult problems we face and work together on an international level to negotiate sincere agreements to put in place real carbon reduction, and transition to sustainable alternatives. Both on the energy generation side and the reductions in the energy demands.

Having meet both Ed Milliband and George Osbourne, I can safely predict that we're are in fact screwed

Hairyloon · Post by **Hairyloon** » 13 Jan 2009, 17:56

IanG wrote:who said electric plane?

Trains run on electricity?

So where are you getting all the electricity from?
Can't all come from wind & wave; tidal has it's own problems, and the simplest, easiest way of using solar is to run it through a plant and burn the proceeds.

It is precisely that attitude which is going to leave us all screwed.
No the attitude that cheap flights, and carrying on like we have over the last 40 years is sustainable, if only we can invent another way eg rape the sea to create fuel, is the attitude that going to lead to us being screwed

It's always rape with you people isn't it. Can't envisage the concept of proper management.
Granted from past history of mankind I appreciate why, but either we're learning, or we're screwed.

We need political leadership that will understand the complex and difficult problems we face and work together on an international level to negotiate sincere agreements to put in place real carbon reduction, and transition to sustainable alternatives. Both on the energy generation side and the reductions in the energy demands.

Having meet both Ed Milliband and George Osbourne, I can safely predict that we're are in fact screwed

Can't argue with you there.

IanG · Post by **IanG** » 13 Jan 2009, 18:36

It's always rape with you people isn't it.

You people?

Think you might find we're very similar.... Difference is I think I'm probably the carbon equivilant of an ex smoker. I have an RX8 in the garage (Which used to do 25k per year until I watched inconvienient truth, now does less than 1k)

Can't envisage the concept of proper management

I have an MBA from one of the top universities in Europe. I think you'll find I do understand management (and advanced strategy).

Hairyloon · Post by **Hairyloon** » 13 Jan 2009, 18:49

IanG wrote:
It's always rape with you people isn't it.
You people?

Yes, you people who refer to the reasonable harvest of a natural resource as rape.

Think you might find we're very similar....

You are probably right. You said you wanted an argument; I was being argumentative.

Can't envisage the concept of proper management
I have an MBA from one of the top universities in Europe. I think you'll find I do understand management (and advanced strategy).

So why call it rape?

IanG · Post by **IanG** » 13 Jan 2009, 19:11

So where are you getting all the electricity from?
Can't all come from wind & wave; tidal has it's own problems, and the simplest, easiest way of using solar is to run it through a plant and burn the proceeds.

First, none of this is as simple as our conversation but,.....

1) Need to establish how much energy we really need as opposed to how much we currently use.
Look across segments & industries. Take personal travel, the school run,..

My daughters school run would have been horrific. My local council decided that inspite of 5 schools in my area (650 intake, 650 places) decided to offer my daughter a school 18 miles away. Reason was many of the places were being offered to siblings from outside the area. Carbon cost of travelling 18m each way for 7 years? There was no bus service so the council offered a taxi service!

We made other arrangements, but my daughter was not alone that year ( I believe the same thing happened to about 30 others)

So point being, we waste a lot of energy and people waste a lot of energy on behalf of others. I raised the carbon cost with East Herts DC and their response was they weren't bothered. I then found out that 4 days before their offer of this place they had signed the local goverment kyoto pledge.

In terms of generation, there are a range of interesting ideas, including solar farms from northern africa feed into a european high voltage DC network.

I've recently been studying the nuclear power issue and my conclusion is that the price of nuclear power will determine the base price for all forms of electricity. This is excellent news if you're planning on investing in renewables; but bad news if you're a consumer of electricity.

Fuel in the form of hydro carbons has a number of properites that are hard to reproduce (storage - high energy yield per density etc) and as a consequence, it will tend to become more highly valued and kept for the most appropriate uses (if only). It will still exist, but kept for airplanes etc and not for taking the 4 by 4 to primark. (Or your RX8

not that I shop there) And if this fuel was manufactured on land in a sustainable way - I'd be delighted.

Now I'm going to argue with myself

Global tempertures need to rise by a further 1.2 degrees to see the greenland ice sheet melt - reading a report that says based on current data/trends this will be by 2100.

This will lead to sea levels rising by 7m - so plently of new 'sea areas' to farm your algae - Like south kensington and chelsea or Norfolk

IanG · Post by **IanG** » 13 Jan 2009, 19:20

natural resource

Oil's a natural resource so is coal.

In fact thats what amuses me about the whole CCS debate. We already have the most efficient and effective CCS- Its called leave it in the ground.

reasonable harvest of a natural resource as rape

Well one difference between Sex and Rape is probably what constitutes reasonable......

fifthcolumn · Post by **fifthcolumn** » 02 Apr 2009, 00:11

I read tons about this in 2007 and researched companies to invest in.
Unfortunately nobody has been able to get it up to the levels quoted (100,000 litres per year). Either they can't get enough sunlight to all the algae in the tank or it gets contaminatd or the algae can't produce enough oil.
The best has been around more or less the same as rapeseed at about 5000 litres a year.

In addition to this is the cost of the bioreactors, meaning they have to use race track ponds.

As a price point, some german outfit is producing spirulina en masse and is selling it at about 5X the price of oil per kilogram.

So here's something: thinking outside the box: why not just EAT IT?