Finding owner of nearby woodland

RevdTess · Post by **RevdTess** » 12 Jan 2009, 20:27

There's a couple of acres of woodland 100 yds away from me that no one here can seem to find the owner of. Rumour has it that it belongs to a woman who inherited it but doesnt really want anything to do with it. Several of us here locally would like to relieve her of the burden, but we've no idea how to track her down. The Land Registry and local council have no record of an owner. Anyone got any ideas about how to proceed?

Catweazle · Post by **Catweazle** » 12 Jan 2009, 20:53

She might have died. If you fence it off and maintain it for 12 years uncontested you can claim it as your own. I know someone who moved his garden fence over onto abandoned land, now he's the legal owner of the extra land.

RevdTess · Post by **RevdTess** » 12 Jan 2009, 21:14

Catweazle wrote:She might have died. If you fence it off and maintain it for 12 years uncontested you can claim it as your own. I know someone who moved his garden fence over onto abandoned land, now he's the legal owner of the extra land.

Yeah I was aware of the 12-year rule. My neighbour has the better claim to it as it adjoins his land not mine. He'd like to run an access track through it to his property (and thence to mine if I pay for it), but doesn't want to make the expenditure without clear title to the land. Hence the question.

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 12 Jan 2009, 22:02

Catweazle wrote:She might have died. If you fence it off and maintain it for 12 years uncontested you can claim it as your own.

WOW!!!

Hairyloon · Post by **Hairyloon** » 12 Jan 2009, 23:29

Tess wrote:My neighbour has the better claim to it as it adjoins his land not mine.

That's irrelevant. Neither of you presently has any claim on the land.

He'd like to run an access track through it to his property (and thence to mine if I pay for it), but doesn't want to make the expenditure without clear title to the land. Hence the question.

Why do you need an access track, unless you're planning to start pulling large amounts of timber out?
If you cannot locate the owner, your only option is to take possession of the land, and if this is the route you take, then you should not be taking significant amounts of timber out at this stage.
You not only run the risk of being displaced by the rightful owner, they may consider that to be criminal damage, and/or theft.

Take possession, and begin gentle management; keep trying to find the owner and see how it goes. At best, you can get possessory title after 12 years. I don't know if it's worth writing to the Land Registry and informing them you've taken possession, it might make it easier to prove things later.

At worst you'll get free firewood for a while.

Check with the Forestry Authority, they may have records, and they may also have grants towards the management.

RevdTess · Post by **RevdTess** » 13 Jan 2009, 08:19

Hairyloon wrote:
Tess wrote:My neighbour has the better claim to it as it adjoins his land not mine.
That's irrelevant. Neither of you presently has any claim on the land.

It's not irrelevant. He may not have any better legal claim, but he has the better moral claim in the sense that if I somehow got ownership of the land when I know full well that he wants and needs it more than me, it would be very bad form indeed. Also he's better equipped to manage it than I am - he has far more experience and the land adjoins his.

He'd like to run an access track through it to his property (and thence to mine if I pay for it), but doesn't want to make the expenditure without clear title to the land. Hence the question.
Why do you need an access track, unless you're planning to start pulling large amounts of timber out?

The woodland is unmanaged and overgrown. It needs significant thinning. As I said, no access track would be built unless either I or my neighbour has clear ownership.

If you cannot locate the owner, your only option is to take possession of the land, and if this is the route you take, then you should not be taking significant amounts of timber out at this stage.

And that's why we wouldn't be building a track unless we can clearly buy the land, and that's why we're eager to find the owner, hence this thread.

You not only run the risk of being displaced by the rightful owner, they may consider that to be criminal damage, and/or theft.

Exactly.

Check with the Forestry Authority, they may have records, and they may also have grants towards the management.

Thanks, will look into that one.

Catweazle · Post by **Catweazle** » 13 Jan 2009, 12:02

The question is, will your neighbour do anything about it ? He hasn't yet.

If you do manage to get possession you can grant your neighbour any permissions you like, no guarantee he would do the same.

Hairyloon · Post by **Hairyloon** » 13 Jan 2009, 14:03

Tess wrote:It's not irrelevant. He may not have any better legal claim, but he has the better moral claim in the sense that if I somehow got ownership of the land when I know full well that he wants and needs it more than me, it would be very bad form indeed. Also he's better equipped to manage it than I am - he has far more experience and the land adjoins his.

Meanwhile you are doing the work running around trying to locate the owner?
I had read into your post the implication that it was likely to be a joint venture.

And that's why we wouldn't be building a track unless we can clearly buy the land, and that's why we're eager to find the owner, hence this thread.

But if you can't find the owner, then you can't find the owner. As someone suggested, maybe they died. Maybe they've just got more property than they know what to do with and have forgotten they own it.
That being the case, this is exactly what the law was designed for: to prevent land falling into disuse indefinitely.
Of course it might be that the owner likes it as a wild wood, and comes for a wander on a regular basis.
Why don't you stick a sign up asking them to contact you?

RevdTess · Post by **RevdTess** » 13 Jan 2009, 14:10

Hairyloon wrote:Meanwhile you are doing the work running around trying to locate the owner?
I had read into your post the implication that it was likely to be a joint venture.

You're very unkind to my neighbour for some reason I can't entirely fathom. He's already tried and failed to find the owner; so I'm seeing if I can turn up any more leads by asking on powerswitch. Simple as.

I'd love to own the land myself but my neighbour has been very kind to me since I've moved in and I couldn't countenance buying the land without giving him first option even if I found the owner first.

Truth is we'd both benefit if either of us owned the land, so the priority is to find the owner so one of us can buy the land. Leaving it as-is for 12 years is hardly a useful option given that most of us on this website expect civilisation to be much changed by that time. I'd certainly be getting on a bit.

RevdTess · Post by **RevdTess** » 13 Jan 2009, 14:13

Catweazle wrote:The question is, will your neighbour do anything about it ? He hasn't yet.

If you do manage to get possession you can grant your neighbour any permissions you like, no guarantee he would do the same.

I don't see how I can do anything if my neighbour won't/can't. I've no physical boundary with the land, and I can't make an 'uncontested claim' without insulting the neighbour's goodwill towards me. It would be an outrageous thing to do within a month of moving in to a new community where I've been made to feel so welcome.

DominicJ · Post by **DominicJ** » 13 Jan 2009, 14:24

It wasnt clear if your neighbour had done much about the woodland or not, so haiory was probably just looking out for you.

You've tried your best to find the owner, so just enclose the woodland and inform the land registry that you have done
Doesnt have to be expensive fencing, just a few posts a bit of wire will do.

If an owner does turn up, then you can offer to buy, or take back the fencing.

Personaly, I'd grab it legaly and allow my neighbour (The person not the property) use, but I'm a sneaky git.
That assumes the woodland has access from public land, not just your neighbours house.

Hairyloon · Post by **Hairyloon** » 13 Jan 2009, 17:04

Tess wrote:
Hairyloon wrote:Meanwhile you are doing the work running around trying to locate the owner?
I had read into your post the implication that it was likely to be a joint venture.
You're very unkind to my neighbour for some reason I can't entirely fathom.

It was just a question. I can see how you may have read that tone into it.
Sorry, that's just my way, you'll get used to it.

As I said, I'd thought it was (and perhaps should be) a joint venture.

Leaving it as-is for 12 years is hardly a useful option given that most of us on this website expect civilisation to be much changed by that time. I'd certainly be getting on a bit.

That's why I suggested gentle management.
Everybody benefits: the woods are improved should the owner show up, and you have some free firewood.

mobbsey · Post by **mobbsey** » 13 Jan 2009, 18:21

RenewableCandy wrote:
Catweazle wrote:She might have died. If you fence it off and maintain it for 12 years uncontested you can claim it as your own.
WOW!!!

It's better if the land is the property of someone who died intestate (no heirs). As there's no one to sign the eviction papers you can occupy the land for quite a long period. However, as councils often purchase such land in these cases to prevent it becoming and eyesore, you're unlikely to make the 12 years.

Catweazle · Post by **Catweazle** » 13 Jan 2009, 22:32

Tess wrote:
Catweazle wrote:The question is, will your neighbour do anything about it ? He hasn't yet.

If you do manage to get possession you can grant your neighbour any permissions you like, no guarantee he would do the same.
I don't see how I can do anything if my neighbour won't/can't. I've no physical boundary with the land, and I can't make an 'uncontested claim' without insulting the neighbour's goodwill towards me. It would be an outrageous thing to do within a month of moving in to a new community where I've been made to feel so welcome.

You don't have to make a claim on it, I wouldn't suggest anything to upset your new friends, all you have to do is a bit of gentle maintenance. The woods will benefit, wildlife will benefit, you and your neighbour will benefit. If nobody has compained in 12 years claim title and split it with your neighbour, if he's still there.

For example, why not start planting a nice native hedge around the land ? It will take a few years to get established and will be a haven for birds. Include Dog Rose and you'll have an all year round vitamin C supply which the birds will thank you for too, possibly the whole village if things get rough.

Inside the woods you could plant a few Walnut trees or maybe cherry if there are decent width rides. Sooner you plant, sooner you harvest.

Ballard · Post by **Ballard** » 14 Jan 2009, 18:29

mobbsey wrote:
RenewableCandy wrote:
Catweazle wrote:She might have died. If you fence it off and maintain it for 12 years uncontested you can claim it as your own.
WOW!!!
It's better if the land is the property of someone who died intestate (no heirs). As there's no one to sign the eviction papers you can occupy the land for quite a long period. However, as councils often purchase such land in these cases to prevent it becoming and eyesore, you're unlikely to make the 12 years.

In order to claim land you need to fence it off (or create other boundary), to the exclusion of all others for 12 years.

We have a plot of land behind our house which we (a group of the neibouger) have requistioned, however because we use it as a playground for the kids from all four houses no-one can claim it.