Ruralisation

[isenhand]

Anyone interested in the community solution and networking might be interested in the link bellow. Even if you are not you still might be interested anyway

interview with Folke G?nthe

[skeptik]

"100 friends and a farmer: all it takes to create a sustainable community?"

I dont think so. Which of the 100 friends is going to do the open heart surgery and where are they going to do it?

On a more prosaic level, who is going to make the pencils, when *nobody* knows how to make a pencil?

the proposition wasn't even true during the stone age, when farming communities relied on the external input of a non-renewable resource from specialised mining communities, flint tools, which were traded right across Europe from the UK during the Neolithic.

[Joe]

"100 friends and a farmer: all it takes to create a sustainable community?"

I dont think so. Which of the 100 friends is going to do the open heart surgery and where are they going to do it?

On a more prosaic level, who is going to make the pencils, when *nobody* knows how to make a pencil?

the proposition wasn't even true during the stone age, when farming communities relied on the external input of a non-renewable resource from specialised mining communities, flint tools, which were traded right across Europe from the UK during the Neolithic.

I don't think many people are niave enough to believe that they can set up a community and live in complete isolation from the rest of the world - are they?

On open heart surgery: nobody - you either get them to the hospital in town in time or they die - not very different to how it is now, whether you're in the country or the city. Although if you're living in a rural intentional community trying to be as self-sufficient and sustainable as possible, the chances are that you're eating a hell of a lot more healthily, not smoking (or smoking less) and drinking less so heart disease could be less of a problem.

[MaxWahlter]

Gentlemen: perhaps we could raise the discussion a little. The scenario proposed by Folke Gunthe is a way for UNITS of communities to form clusters around cities. The proposal is re-ruralisation.

The clusters form around main roads so ambulances can pick up triple by pass patients and get them under the knife quickly whilst the pencil factory hums in the background.

The difference between the mining industry of the stone age and now is that the present system is non-sustainable. Stone age man would not be endangered by Peak Flint.

[skeptik]

I don't think many people are niave enough to believe that they can set up a community and live in complete isolation from the rest of the world - are they?

That does seem to be an unspoken assumption with some people. The green dream.

The argument is about what 'sustainablity' means. Not even an entity as big as the UK is currently 'sustainable' on its own. There is too much technology which our society now relies on, which in the UK we do not have the know how or resources to produce for ourselves.

'One farmer and 100 friends' is a joke. After a few generations you would be down (once the inital irreplaceable 'inherited' tech - such as hoes and pencils - had broken down or worn out) to pointy sticks and rabbit skins. Even the Amish rely on the products of the global technological economy.

So what happens if and when the global economy breaks down because of Peak Oil or some other reason? the fantasy of 'One farmer and 100 friends' gets exposed for what it is, an unsustainable fantasy.

[Blue Peter]

'One farmer and 100 friends' is a joke. After a few generations you would be down (once the inital irreplaceable 'inherited' tech - such as hoes and pencils - had broken down or worn out) to pointy sticks and rabbit skins. Even the Amish rely on the products of the global technological economy.

I would have thought that a simple blacksmithing operation could have fixed a hoe, and other simple tools. Pencils, as you've pointed out, are difficult, and I expect that so are solar water heaters, wind turbines and other "renewables". However, quite impressive civilizations have risen from what can't be much more than pointy sticks and rabbit skins, so it's not just a one-way ticket,


Peter.

[isenhand]

I dont think so. Which of the 100 friends is going to do the open heart surgery and where are they going to do it?

Sustainable is not the same a self sufficient.

Sustainable just means you can keep on going doing what you are doing, theoretically, forever, in practice for a very long time.

You can not be 100% self sufficient and survive for long. You will always need some level of networking but you can be self sufficient to some degree regarding energy and food production as well as waste management. Network will allow a much higher survival chance and standard of living.

What Folke is talking about is communities that do handle most of their own food production and most if not all of their waste management. They may also handle some of their own energy production. However, such communities are not isolated, they are still part of the wider society. He even mentions joining such communities up.

[skeptik]

I would have thought that a simple blacksmithing operation could have fixed a hoe,

How are you going to produce steel with one farmer and 100 friends?

However, quite impressive civilizations have risen from what can't be much more than pointy sticks and rabbit skins, so it's not just a one-way ticket,

With our current technological civilisation it is a one way ticket. If it goes down there is no way back up, as all the high grade resources which are usable with simple technology - such as a traditional blacksmiths smithy - have been used up.

For instance, If you want copper, you'll need the technological infrastructure capable of refining from ore grades of a few hundred parts per million and then transporting it from Chile or South Africa. Theres none left in the UK.

[Blue Peter]

With our current technological civilisation it is a one way ticket. If it goes down there is no way back up, as all the high grade resources which are usable with simple technology - such as a traditional blacksmiths smithy - have been used up.

For instance, If you want copper, you'll need the technological infrastructure capable of refining from ore grades of a few hundred parts per million and then transporting it from Chile or South Africa. Theres none left in the UK.

I think that this might have been discussed before, but I don't have a link. Though the mines are all worked out, certainly for that level of technology, a certain highly profligate Western civilization has done a good job of extracting and concentrating various valuable minerals. Resources will be obtained by scavanging rather than mining,


Peter.

[Joe]

I guess I can only speak from my own perspective which is that ultimately PO represents a problem of risk management - how do I maximise the security of and minimise the threats to my family.

Intuitively I feel like the country would be a safer place to bring up kids etc, but that may just be because I've lived in deprived urban areas and know how truly depressing it can be; I've seen 9 year old kids burgling the house across the street, torching cars, knocking on the door and offering to sell me marijuana and even trying to sell my own property back to me after my flat was burgled. I was burgled 4 times in the space of 2 years and was randomly attacked by a total stranger in the street.

It could well be that I'm viewing the countryside through rose-tinted spectacles and I know that I don't understand the full implications of moving to the country, but I have this palpable image in my mind's eye of how city life could be in a recession/depression and I can't help thinking that if nothing else, the density of desparate people who can have a negative impact on your family's life will be lower in rural areas.

A lot of the sustainable idealism that seems to go hand in hand with intentional communities will, I fear, turn out to be luxuries that the community can ill-afford when the first harvest fails or the sheep get foot-and-mouth, but at least you'd have a sense of having more control over your destiny than if you're getting burgled or mugged every 5 minutes.

[skeptik]

I dont think so. Which of the 100 friends is going to do the open heart surgery and where are they going to do it?

Sustainable is not the same a self sufficient.

Sustainable just means you can keep on going doing what you are doing, theoretically, forever, in practice for a very long time.

Youve just defined 'sustainable' as being 'unsustainable after a very long time'.

I just cant see where 'a very long time' comes from. The Farmer and his hundred friends wont last much longer than the global economy - if that goes down they do too.

Our current technological civilisation as currently constituted has been going on for 'a very long time' but is ultimately unsustainable unless it transforms to a steady state economy or manages to expand off planet to acquire resources elsewhere.

[genoxy]

Intuitively I feel like the country would be a safer place to bring up kids etc, but that may just be because I've lived in deprived urban areas and know how truly depressing it can be; I've seen 9 year old kids burgling the house across the street, torching cars, knocking on the door and offering to sell me marijuana and even trying to sell my own property back to me after my flat was burgled. I was burgled 4 times in the space of 2 years and was randomly attacked by a total stranger in the street.

Gosh, and I thought London was dodgy

[Joe]

Intuitively I feel like the country would be a safer place to bring up kids etc, but that may just be because I've lived in deprived urban areas and know how truly depressing it can be; I've seen 9 year old kids burgling the house across the street, torching cars, knocking on the door and offering to sell me marijuana and even trying to sell my own property back to me after my flat was burgled. I was burgled 4 times in the space of 2 years and was randomly attacked by a total stranger in the street.

Gosh, and I thought London was dodgy

That was Newcastle in the early 90's - it's grim up North.

[isenhand]

I dont think so. Which of the 100 friends is going to do the open heart surgery and where are they going to do it?

Sustainable is not the same a self sufficient.

Sustainable just means you can keep on going doing what you are doing, theoretically, forever, in practice for a very long time.

Youve just defined 'sustainable' as being 'unsustainable after a very long time'.

I just cant see where 'a very long time' comes from. The Farmer and his hundred friends wont last much longer than the global economy - if that goes down they do too.

Our current technological civilisation as currently constituted has been going on for 'a very long time' but is ultimately unsustainable unless it transforms to a steady state economy or manages to expand off planet to acquire resources elsewhere.

no system is perfect even if you recycled everything back into the system there will be loses so in the end even a sustainable system is not perfect and will fail. ?A long time? is a relative concept and it this case it is relative to the time an unsustainable system such as our current socioeconomic system can last.

One farmer and 100 hundred friend won?t last, as you say but then that is not all that there is. One farmer and 100 friends could form one unit but that is not the only unit to produce. You take another farmer and another 100 friends and you have two units, keep on going and you end up with a large number of units (potentially enough units so that everyone on the plant is part of such a unit). Each unit is the one part of a whole network. It has connections to other units and those others connect to more units. Each unit could do more than just produce food, they could also have small community businesses that produce goods or assemble goods from parts produced in other communities. The whole thing becomes a holonic system. Through networking you maintain industry and a reasonable high standard of living. You can even still make pencils that way.

[Pixie]

"100 friends and a farmer: all it takes to create a sustainable community?"

I dont think so. Which of the 100 friends is going to do the open heart surgery and where are they going to do it?

Curious to know what the demographic of this forum is.

Even with the advent of air ambulances there are still many parts of the UK where people don't assume that in the event of an accident or sudden illness they will be able to get to hospital.