Why do policemen kill people?

gug · Post by **gug** » 10 Jan 2009, 23:14

Totally_Baffled wrote: But you cannot use such example to somehow tar all police actions with guns with the same brush.

If we banned everything where the minority did something wrong nobody would be allowed to do anything!

And if we excuse the minority of incidents, it can only get worse.
The policemen need rigorous policing (just ask the Birmingham Six, the Guilford Four, the Maguire Seven etc etc etc etc etc).

Totally_Baffled wrote: I somehow think that we had to deal with the shit the police had to deal with we may act a bit more aggressively than we normally would (not that I justify this particular action!)

But that is totally unacceptable and in no way can ever excuse their reactions.
They are supposed to be rigorously trained to NOT react in an unnecessarily aggressive manner. If they do act in this manner, they are no better than armed thugs and have entirely failed in their jobs.

Don't you love the way that the police tried to confiscate all film of this incident (BART shooting). I'm sure they would claim it was for evidence - I'm damn sure that we wouldn't have seen this footage again if they had succeeded.

Bit like all the public traffic cameras mysteriously get "maintained" during demos in london, and the cameras never seem to work when they are required generally ie 7/7 bus camera - or Stockwell tube when they murdered the Brazilian (remember folks, he was wearing too many clothes on a hot day (fail) and he jumped the barriers (fail) - If a policeman told me the sky was blue i'd have to check - funny, really 10 years ago I was Mr "Law and Order" and "naturally" supported the Police. All it takes is a few demos and you see the difference in their behavior and the "official" BBC "pr" version of friendly Constable plod.

Totally_Baffled · Post by **Totally_Baffled** » 10 Jan 2009, 23:29

And if we excuse the minority of incidents, it can only get worse

I didnt say excuse the minority, I said do not let the minority tarnish the majority.

A VERY BIG DIFFERENCE.

I agree reference your point about police being policied.

But that is totally unacceptable and in no way can ever excuse their reactions.

Policeman are humans, if you want to probe anything profesion there are inperfections.

Regardless of training if I had to put up with what a policeman, a doctor or a fireman has to put up with - I suspect I would act sometimes differently to how a I would usually act.

By the way - when I say act more "aggressively", I dont mean go around shooting people! That is an extreme, and is obviously totally unacceptable!

Bit like all the public traffic cameras mysteriously get "maintained" during demos in london

,

Like all demonstrators are angels!

gug · Post by **gug** » 11 Jan 2009, 00:40

Totally_Baffled wrote:
And if we excuse the minority of incidents, it can only get worse
I didnt say excuse the minority, I said do not let the minority tarnish the majority.

At what level do you let the "minority" get to ?

totally_baffled wrote:
I agree reference your point about police being policied.

But that is totally unacceptable and in no way can ever excuse their reactions.
Policeman are humans, if you want to probe anything profesion there are inperfections.

Regardless of training if I had to put up with what a policeman, a doctor or a fireman has to put up with - I suspect I would act sometimes differently to how a I would usually act.

By the way - when I say act more "aggressively", I dont mean go around shooting people! That is an extreme, and is obviously totally unacceptable!

No, thats right, in this country they dont get generally armed. In the UK they're much more likelyjust lie to you (misrepresenting the law) to fit you up or arrest you for no other reason that they can or they feel like it or just assault you, with, or without a "weapon"

Totally_baffled wrote: Like all demonstrators are angels!

If you've ever been on one you'll know that trouble usually occurs when the police are about to go into overtime,
There is then pressure to "end it".

Thats when trouble starts. If you've ever seen it you'd know what i mean.
Trouble is, unless you're there you only get the opinion of the police, handed to you via the mainstream media.

Dont ever try and disagree with the police. You will be attacked by a mob.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3YtmBD_thM

Beware, you may see "people who arent like you" - doesn't mean they should be attacked.

I'm not sure that there ever was a golden age of policing, but now they're just politicised thugs.

Edited to add:
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/7263

This was originally reported in the daily mail (where i originally saw it, and the article still links to the now missing page), but curiously, they seem to have now expunged it from their website.

This is just one of many sites the re-reported it, i just plucked this one at random.

Those Pesky demonstrators, eh TB ?

Of course, this would never happen here (uk) would it ?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=69dGRJwFTGA

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 11 Jan 2009, 08:48

Totally_Baffled wrote: But you cannot use such example to somehow tar all police actions with guns with the same brush.

Eh? I never said all policemen kill people!

Actually, it's not so much this particular policeman's action that caught my attention. An individual policeman, can be bad, mad, plain stupid or just make a mistake. Stuff happens. No, what concerns me is the events after the event, the behaviour and actions of the police force, government and legal authorities and the media. This is not down to an individual doing the wrong thing but a much more systemic and, to my mind, worrying affair.

Like with the London shooting of the Brazilian, what concerned me was not so much that one policeman made a mistake, but the way the police handled the matter from there on.

Totally_Baffled · Post by **Totally_Baffled** » 11 Jan 2009, 19:40

Gug

Lets just leave the discusson there I think, we are getting into the realms of conspiracy - which is a whole new level of debate.

I am sure there are some bad eggs in our police force, but compared to other countries I think we do quite well (caveat - no room for complacency)

Ben · Post by **Ben** » 11 Jan 2009, 20:06

With the danger of sounding too complacent (things definitely aren't perfect!) the UK police are now almost the only police in the world that don't carry guns routinely and surely that's got to a postive thing? Actually, I'm surprised by this as we're not living in the 1950s world of Dixon of Dock Green any more.

As for the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes, even the most dedicated conspiracy theorist would surely not describe it as some sort of deliberate assassination, it was a tragic mistake. You can criticise what happened afterwards but at least there was an inquest, CPS investigation, inquiry, extensive media coverage etc (quite rightly). Not sure where in the world more would have been done.

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » 11 Jan 2009, 20:21

Dixon of Dock Green was killed by a gunman before the TV (and radio) series started, and went through some sort of reincarnation!

Ben · Post by **Ben** » 11 Jan 2009, 21:48

JohnB wrote:Dixon of Dock Green was killed by a gunman before the TV (and radio) series started, and went through some sort of reincarnation!

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » 11 Jan 2009, 21:55

Ben wrote:

The Blue Lamp

gug · Post by **gug** » 11 Jan 2009, 23:57

Totally_Baffled wrote:Gug

Lets just leave the discusson there I think, we are getting into the realms of conspiracy - which is a whole new level of debate.

I am sure there are some bad eggs in our police force, but compared to other countries I think we do quite well (caveat - no room for complacency)

oh hey sure, i'm not trying to convert anyone, as for conspiracy, i think what I posted could in the main be considered evidence, so I shouldn't bother tarring up that old brush.

gug · Post by **gug** » 12 Jan 2009, 00:12

Ben wrote:
As for the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes, even the most dedicated conspiracy theorist

Theres that old brush again.

Ben wrote: would surely not describe it as some sort of deliberate assassination, it was a tragic mistake. You can criticise what happened afterwards but at least there was an inquest, CPS investigation, inquiry, extensive media coverage etc (quite rightly). Not sure where in the world more would have been done.

It was no mistake that they didn't try to "apprehend" him

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4713199.stm

But i'm not here to argue over this, the facts should speak for themselves.

We now live in a state where the police can shoot you in the head seven times based on no evidence at all, then attempt to cover up the details, lie to the press and then entirely escape punishment or even reconsideration of policy.

If you're at all comfortable with this situation then thats your lookout.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » 12 Jan 2009, 02:02

gug wrote:But i'm not here to argue over this, the facts should speak for themselves.

We now live in a state where the police can shoot you in the head seven times based on no evidence at all, then attempt to cover up the details, lie to the press and then entirely escape punishment or even reconsideration of policy.

If you're at all comfortable with this situation then thats your lookout.

We might have to agree to disagree on this one. Actually, thinking about other posts, on many other issues as well! Not to worry, keeps the forum lively.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 12 Jan 2009, 08:10

gug wrote:We now live in a state where the police can shoot you in the head seven times based on no evidence at all, then attempt to cover up the details, lie to the press and then entirely escape punishment or even reconsideration of policy.

That sums it up pretty accurately to my mind, Gug. As you say, the facts should speak for themselves. Unfortunately a lot of people are not listening.

Maybe it's a bit like Peak Oil and AGW. Denial is everywhere and those in denial can, of course, not see it.

I was particularly shocked at the behaviour of the police at the climate change camp at Kingsnorth. I wasn't there but two friends of mine were and I felt myself really not wanting to believe what they told me. But I do believe them. They were just such reliable witnesses and their story was just too well corroborated.

lancasterlad · Post by **lancasterlad** » 12 Jan 2009, 08:27

If you get the chance, watch the film or DVD of Taking Liberties. It demonstrates the incorrect and over use of police powers since 1997. Britain a free country?

Blue Peter · Post by **Blue Peter** » 12 Jan 2009, 09:23

gug wrote:We now live in a state where the police can shoot you in the head seven times based on no evidence at all, then attempt to cover up the details, lie to the press and then entirely escape punishment or even reconsideration of policy.

If you're at all comfortable with this situation then thats your lookout.

What I've wondered about the de Menezes killing is whether an order went out to try to kill a terrorist - pour encourager les autres - if the opportunity arose. Thus there would have been a heightened tension around any possibility and a greater inclination to go for it.

My understanding is that such a thing occurred in the 80s with the IRA - I vaguely remember the shooting of the IRA people in Gibraltar being an alleged example.

Has anyone heard any discussions along these lines?

Peter.