Eat this - Communism alive and doing just fine...

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Benubi
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Post by Benubi »

kenneal wrote:They were filthy, always ran late, spent a lot of time on strike as did all the other nationalised industries, and, just as now, you couldn't find a member of staff to help you. The big difference was, though, in those days they employed staff by the thousand.

Much cheaper for taxpayers? Which country are you talking about? Certainly not British Rail. The railways would be much cheaper now if the government didn't screw quite as much out of the franchisees before they are allowed to set up shop. The franchisees are spending a lot of money on new rolling stock, which is a thing that didn't happen in the time of British Rail. The only thing they spent money on was wages.
They were often dirty but at least they were more spacious - something I dearly miss. They often ran late but the same is true now. There were strikes but then I'm not unsympathetic to strike action if there are good grounds for it.

Its a fact that British Rail was much cheaper for the tax payer. Look it up. The reasons for it are complicated, in fact the complexity of how the system now works is partly to blame, but implying that the fault is entirely with government lease charges is a waste of everyone's time.

The decision to separate infrastructure from operations in the early 90s was a big mistake and management in both the private and public sector have led us from one crisis to another since then. We now have a situation where UK trains are the most expensive in Europe while the services aren't much better than the poorest countries in Europe.
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Ben
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Post by Ben »

Benubi wrote:The decision to separate infrastructure from operations in the early 90s was a big mistake and management in both the private and
At least the infrastructure is back in public hands (Network Rail) following a string of crashes and safety concerns. Given that the government is in huge debt and is planning on the bulk sell-off of UK state-owned assets I don't think there is any prospect of full nationalisation of the railways any time soon. I still have hopes of an expansion of the network and more high speed rail though.
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Benubi
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Post by Benubi »

landyowner wrote:Can someone explain to me how communism would work without a state-controlled economy please? Then I might be more willig to listen to their ideas.
I may be missing something here but who implies that Communism should work without a state-controlled economy?

I agree that Communism is an unrealistic utopian vision but then so is Capitalism when expressed by its most popular proponents. Always so much has to be ignored or suppressed if a society tries to stay true to these visions.

As I see it the basic problem is that the more complex a society becomes the more sophisticated people need to be to understand & manage it but there are limitations to human intelligence and limitations to growth. Eventually societal collapse becomes all but inevitable.
MacG
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Post by MacG »

landyowner wrote:
MacG wrote:
DominicJ wrote:Disregarding the implication that Capitalism kills, (or shall we debate the number of p[eople who starved in eastern and western Europe?), yeah, pretty much.

People were wreckless and over reached themselves, now they're going to pay for it, unless Gordo sacrifices (more of) us to save them.
I call BS on that one. Arguments blinded by expired ideology, and pretty useless.
Can someone explain to me how communism would work without a state-controlled economy please? Then I might be more willig to listen to their ideas.

Although I don't actually like the founding idea of Communism: 'from each according to his ability to each according to his need', as it violates personal liberty by stealing what is mine and giving it to other people. If I want to share my wealth to others I will do so by either charitable contributions or if I have enough capital I might want to start a business, so my capital would be shared around in the form of wages.

I don't know who said it but I think it's a great saying: 'Communism doesn't work because people like to own stuff.'

I tend to think of communists as utopians, people who think that everyone just wants to share their amazing gifts with everyone else and everyone will live in a happy land made of chocolate (ok, so not that last part :P). But this tends to disregard human nature which is always wanting more and always wanting an edge over one another.

So yes, communism will always be alive and well because there are some people who will always imagine a utopian society and who think it is possible to get there, but in the end a utopian society is impossible, we just manage as best we can.

Sorry for the ramble, I would still like someone to explain to me how communism would work without a state-controlled economy though. :)
Nah, sounds like you just were well conditioned to have a knee-jerk reaction to the word "communism" and did not bother to read or digest the piece linked. If that little word was OTT for you, just wait for when I get to "anarchism". Muahahaha!
landyowner
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Post by landyowner »

MacG wrote:
landyowner wrote:
MacG wrote: I call BS on that one. Arguments blinded by expired ideology, and pretty useless.
Can someone explain to me how communism would work without a state-controlled economy please? Then I might be more willig to listen to their ideas.

Although I don't actually like the founding idea of Communism: 'from each according to his ability to each according to his need', as it violates personal liberty by stealing what is mine and giving it to other people. If I want to share my wealth to others I will do so by either charitable contributions or if I have enough capital I might want to start a business, so my capital would be shared around in the form of wages.

I don't know who said it but I think it's a great saying: 'Communism doesn't work because people like to own stuff.'

I tend to think of communists as utopians, people who think that everyone just wants to share their amazing gifts with everyone else and everyone will live in a happy land made of chocolate (ok, so not that last part :P). But this tends to disregard human nature which is always wanting more and always wanting an edge over one another.

So yes, communism will always be alive and well because there are some people who will always imagine a utopian society and who think it is possible to get there, but in the end a utopian society is impossible, we just manage as best we can.

Sorry for the ramble, I would still like someone to explain to me how communism would work without a state-controlled economy though. :)
Nah, sounds like you just were well conditioned to have a knee-jerk reaction to the word "communism" and did not bother to read or digest the piece linked. If that little word was OTT for you, just wait for when I get to "anarchism". Muahahaha!
No, I read it, and re-read it, and the most interesting piece of information in there was this:
Debt is the most efficient means ever created to take relations that are fundamentally based on violence and violent inequality and to make them seem right and moral to everyone concerned. When the trick no longer works, everything explodes
'The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function.' - Dr. Albert Bartlett
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

I like the system from the South Sea Isles, explained in Jared Diamond's Collapse, where custom has it that you have to give any of your possessions to anyone who asks for them. Obviously, people in these islands have very few possessions and are quite happy in their very sustainable style of living, which is just as well as there aren't many possessions to be had where they live.

That's fine in a place where food grows on trees and you need occasional shelter from the sun and warm rain but in our climate, where a warm shelter and heating is needed, I can't see that system working very well here or other less hospitable places.

Can't remember where I saw it but it was said that the human input into anything we manufacture these days is so small compared with the fuel input that wages are an insignificant trifle and should be paid whether or not people do any work.

This, I've said on here before but I'll repeat it. I had a cow which, when I start feeding them in the winter, just stood by the fence all the time waiting and bellowing for more food. Needless to say, it was always skinny as a rake compared to other animals which would forage for themselves as well as being fed. I called it welfare dependency and there are plenty of human animals like that. The only trouble is that you can't cull the welfare dependent humans like I did to that cow.

When TSHTF these welfare dependants are likely to be either culled by natural selection or undergo a very rapid learning process in basic survival. No work, no eat, no live.

Our problem at the moment is that the system is out of balance: the people with capital enjoy too much power so that they can control what the people without capital have to do to obtain the basics of life. The pyramid has become too broad at the bottom and too high. Too much monetary power has been accumulated into the hands of a few ultra rich people.

We need a system that doesn't encourage people to accumulate huge wealth and require them to accumulate huge numbers of physical assets: that gives people the chance of somewhere comfortable to live and produce their food: and that distributes the assets fairly across the world while rewarding people in a sustainable manner for their work.

Our problem is that fossil fuels have enabled us to get away from the basics of life, the provision of food and shelter, and to go on an orgy of wealth creation largely unfettered by those basics. This has lead to the aberrant and extreme political systems from which we have to chose today.

Please excuse these ramblings: I was hoping that some light would appear at the end of the tunnel to lead us into the Promised Land, but no such luck.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
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DominicJ
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Post by DominicJ »

I call BS on that one. Arguments blinded by expired ideology, and pretty useless.
Erm, just because the Guardian says its expired, doesnt mean it is.

Communism failed in the boom years when energy was cheap and plentiful, hundred million, probably more starved.
Compare that to the capitalist west, where famine just doesnt exist.

Time told then, it will again.
Too much monetary power has been accumulated into the hands of a few ultra rich people.
The richest 10% of the UK own 20% of the wealth and pay 30% of the taxes. How much money and power did Stalin or Hitler have?
I get the odd impression that richest and most powerful 10% in the CCP own a damn site more than 20% of the wealth and pay a damn site less than 30% of the taxes.
Pigs need apples and all that.
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contadino
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Post by contadino »

DominicJ wrote:The richest 10% of the UK own 20% of the wealth and pay 30% of the taxes.
Could you provide a source for all three of those numbers? In the UK, I understood that the top 10% paid next to no tax, and owned a far higher percentage of the wealth.
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DominicJ
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Post by DominicJ »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_ ... dom#Wealth

Its a common idea that the rich pay no tax, but its rubbish.

Generaly speaking, its not worth the effort required to avoid tax, and hasnt been since the abolition of supertax.
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MacG
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Post by MacG »

DominicJ wrote:
I call BS on that one. Arguments blinded by expired ideology, and pretty useless.
Erm, just because the Guardian says its expired, doesnt mean it is.

Communism failed in the boom years when energy was cheap and plentiful, hundred million, probably more starved.
Compare that to the capitalist west, where famine just doesnt exist.

Time told then, it will again.
Too much monetary power has been accumulated into the hands of a few ultra rich people.
The richest 10% of the UK own 20% of the wealth and pay 30% of the taxes. How much money and power did Stalin or Hitler have?
I get the odd impression that richest and most powerful 10% in the CCP own a damn site more than 20% of the wealth and pay a damn site less than 30% of the taxes.
Pigs need apples and all that.
I find it a bit boring with those old worn-out arguments. Boilerplate stuff. Same old, same old.
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DominicJ
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Post by DominicJ »

I didnt realise facts needed to be sexy?
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goslow
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Post by goslow »

contadino wrote:
DominicJ wrote:The richest 10% of the UK own 20% of the wealth and pay 30% of the taxes.
Could you provide a source for all three of those numbers? In the UK, I understood that the top 10% paid next to no tax, and owned a far higher percentage of the wealth.
AFAIK, they sometimes manage their affairs to pay a lower % of their income compared with low salary workers, but they still pay loads of tax, how ever much tax avoidance schemes they manage to contrive.
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GD
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Post by GD »

DominicJ wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_ ... dom#Wealth

Its a common idea that the rich pay no tax, but its rubbish.

Generaly speaking, its not worth the effort required to avoid tax, and hasnt been since the abolition of supertax.
You need to read "Who Runs Britain" by Robert Peston. You might change your mind about that a little. Also if you read "Who Owns Britain" (or "Who Owns the World") by Kevin Cahill you might learn about the massive subsidy that the poor pay to the landed rich out of their taxes.
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Post by MacG »

DominicJ wrote:I didnt realise facts needed to be sexy?
Oh dear. An "RGR" clone... "Everything I state is pure facts and anyone who oppose me has his facts wrong"

Listen, when it comes to politics, there are hardly any facts at all to refer to, only opinions. Its just annoying when you try to enhance your opinion to "facts" and it only serve to discredit your entire opinion.
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DominicJ
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Post by DominicJ »

MacG
If you think my facts are wrong, provide proof of such.




"you might learn about the massive subsidy that the poor pay to the landed rich out of their taxes."

I'm a libertarian, I activly campaign against the EU.


My numbers were how much of the total income tax bill paid by the top 10%, not there tax rate
I'm a realist, not a hippie
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