Running away to Wales.
Moderator: Peak Moderation
Or even better still, put humanure on the hedgrow trees, then cut them and charcoal them. Put them in the veg patch, and stuff that would have caused polution (your poo), will have made a positive contribution to your veg patch, and you will have taken nothing from existing ecosystem, apart from having turned waste (polution is just waste) into fertility.
Jim
For every complex problem, there is a simple answer, and it's wrong.
"Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs" (Lao Tzu V.i).
For every complex problem, there is a simple answer, and it's wrong.
"Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs" (Lao Tzu V.i).
Water Heating
Plumbing/Water Heating question for those with a practical bent:-
At this place we're buying, there's a instantaneous gas (LPG) heater that does central heating and domestic hot water. We don't like this very much as LPG is expensive and, well, limited.
So we're intending to install a woodstove with a backboiler and solar water heating. This requires a water tank with multiple coils to be installed in the roof.
The question is, is there any point keeping the LPG instant boiler in this set up? If the sun isnt shining and we dont want to fire up the woodstove, the other backup is an immersion heater. But could the gas heater also be plumbed into this circuit, so that instead of directly heating the radiators and taps, it heats the water in the tank? Or are such instantaneous combi boilers not suitable for such duty?
Is it better maybe to have some kind of valve which permits both systems in parallel? Ie radiators could be fed either from a hot water tank or by the instant heater system depending on how the valve is set? Or is that just too complicated and asking for trouble?
What do you think?
At this place we're buying, there's a instantaneous gas (LPG) heater that does central heating and domestic hot water. We don't like this very much as LPG is expensive and, well, limited.
So we're intending to install a woodstove with a backboiler and solar water heating. This requires a water tank with multiple coils to be installed in the roof.
The question is, is there any point keeping the LPG instant boiler in this set up? If the sun isnt shining and we dont want to fire up the woodstove, the other backup is an immersion heater. But could the gas heater also be plumbed into this circuit, so that instead of directly heating the radiators and taps, it heats the water in the tank? Or are such instantaneous combi boilers not suitable for such duty?
Is it better maybe to have some kind of valve which permits both systems in parallel? Ie radiators could be fed either from a hot water tank or by the instant heater system depending on how the valve is set? Or is that just too complicated and asking for trouble?
What do you think?
It's a small house, so does it need radiators if you're using a wood stove? If the stove on it's own will heat the whole house, all you need is a small back boiler for hot water, with one radiator as a heat dump. Then keep the existing system as it is. LPG is expensive, but as you don't own enough land to grow all your own firewood, that could also become expensive. So keep things flexible and simple.
Tess, if you can at all manage it, I would urge you to at least think about a Rayburn instead of a wood burner. It will provide heat to the house (radiated through its body), hot water and cooking. Our is the best thing we've ever done to the house. We get WAY more for your wood than on our woodburner.
Not sure about the instantaneous LPG boiler, but we have a gas boiler as part of our system. We don't use it much. We occasionally use it to heat a bath in the summer months, but a solar DHW panel would fix that, and then I'm tempted to tell Calor to sling their hooks and come and take their tanks away. You have to pay a ground rent for them....
The tank is the heart of the system. We got a gert biggun from the Newark Copper Cylinder company. It holds something like 250L and can store all the heat from our Rayburn throughout the day, and we can then use the heat stored in the tank to power radiators at night, and in the morning. And have a bath. It's superb. The system I designed is working better than even I expected. In the winter the house is warm, there is always hot water, and it doesn't use TOO much wood. About six tonnes last year, which cost about £600, compared with £900 for LPG the year before. And we don't need to use a kettle or the electric oven in the winter, so electricity savings on top of that.
You could always change the gas boiler to a non-instantaneous boiler. This would then feed into the tank.
Our tank has four coils and is not a presurised system. It has four completely sealed independent systems feeding into it. In order, top coil at top of list, bottom coil in the tank at the bottom of the list.
Coil to take heat out to the radiators when pumped. - Has own pump.
Coil for Gas boiler. - Has own pump. When boiler on top of tank heated.
Coil for Rayburn. - 28mm feed thermosyphon. - Rayburn heats tank.
Coil for solar panel. - Not yet connected.
Hope that helps a bit.
BTW, we got our rayburn (the smallest model possible) from ebay for £125! The Royal is what is now sold as the 212SFW.
Not sure about the instantaneous LPG boiler, but we have a gas boiler as part of our system. We don't use it much. We occasionally use it to heat a bath in the summer months, but a solar DHW panel would fix that, and then I'm tempted to tell Calor to sling their hooks and come and take their tanks away. You have to pay a ground rent for them....
The tank is the heart of the system. We got a gert biggun from the Newark Copper Cylinder company. It holds something like 250L and can store all the heat from our Rayburn throughout the day, and we can then use the heat stored in the tank to power radiators at night, and in the morning. And have a bath. It's superb. The system I designed is working better than even I expected. In the winter the house is warm, there is always hot water, and it doesn't use TOO much wood. About six tonnes last year, which cost about £600, compared with £900 for LPG the year before. And we don't need to use a kettle or the electric oven in the winter, so electricity savings on top of that.
You could always change the gas boiler to a non-instantaneous boiler. This would then feed into the tank.
Our tank has four coils and is not a presurised system. It has four completely sealed independent systems feeding into it. In order, top coil at top of list, bottom coil in the tank at the bottom of the list.
Coil to take heat out to the radiators when pumped. - Has own pump.
Coil for Gas boiler. - Has own pump. When boiler on top of tank heated.
Coil for Rayburn. - 28mm feed thermosyphon. - Rayburn heats tank.
Coil for solar panel. - Not yet connected.
Hope that helps a bit.
BTW, we got our rayburn (the smallest model possible) from ebay for £125! The Royal is what is now sold as the 212SFW.
Jim
For every complex problem, there is a simple answer, and it's wrong.
"Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs" (Lao Tzu V.i).
For every complex problem, there is a simple answer, and it's wrong.
"Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs" (Lao Tzu V.i).
Good thoughts there, thanks! I like flexible and simple.JohnB wrote:It's a small house, so does it need radiators if you're using a wood stove? If the stove on it's own will heat the whole house, all you need is a small back boiler for hot water, with one radiator as a heat dump. Then keep the existing system as it is. LPG is expensive, but as you don't own enough land to grow all your own firewood, that could also become expensive. So keep things flexible and simple.
I like the flexibility of warmth in the morning! Currently we light our rayburn at about 3pm, and by half five we have enough hot water for a bath, cook our diner on it and the house is warm. We let it go out at night. In the morning we can dump the heat in the tank to a radiator in the bathroom. And they are CHEAP. You could as you say install it alongside the existing system, simply by having a tank in the loft. Newark are cheap for tanks and you can order exactly what you want. I was pleased with our woodburner, but I'm overjoyed with our Rayburn. 10x better, for very little extra wood. Far more flexible.
Can you cook bread in a woodburner? Can you boil a pan of chutney on a woodburner (OK, some you can), can you roast a chicken on a woodburner? We can do all this without the need for fossil fuels.
Can you cook bread in a woodburner? Can you boil a pan of chutney on a woodburner (OK, some you can), can you roast a chicken on a woodburner? We can do all this without the need for fossil fuels.
Jim
For every complex problem, there is a simple answer, and it's wrong.
"Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs" (Lao Tzu V.i).
For every complex problem, there is a simple answer, and it's wrong.
"Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs" (Lao Tzu V.i).
Most importantly the Rayburn is the heart of the house. It's difficult to explain, but it's a far more homely house now it has one. I hate it when spring comes and we have to stop lighting it! It is a truly simple system if you have it independently. No trickier than a woodburner with a back boilier. In fact, thats all it really is, but with a heat store (thermal mass) and an oven built in. These things mean more of the heat from teh wood is actually used, and less heat goes up the chimney.
Modern woodburners are very efficient at turning wood into heat. They are not very efficient at transfering that heat to the room. An awful lot of that heat goes up the chimney.
Modern woodburners are very efficient at turning wood into heat. They are not very efficient at transfering that heat to the room. An awful lot of that heat goes up the chimney.
Jim
For every complex problem, there is a simple answer, and it's wrong.
"Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs" (Lao Tzu V.i).
For every complex problem, there is a simple answer, and it's wrong.
"Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs" (Lao Tzu V.i).
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adam2
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Re: Water Heating
It sounds as though the existing appliance is an LPG combi boiler, in which case radiators cant be fed from a combi and a wood stove.Tess wrote:Plumbing/Water Heating question for those with a practical bent:-
At this place we're buying, there's a instantaneous gas (LPG) heater that does central heating and domestic hot water. We don't like this very much as LPG is expensive and, well, limited.
So we're intending to install a woodstove with a backboiler and solar water heating. This requires a water tank with multiple coils to be installed in the roof.
The question is, is there any point keeping the LPG instant boiler in this set up? If the sun isnt shining and we dont want to fire up the woodstove, the other backup is an immersion heater. But could the gas heater also be plumbed into this circuit, so that instead of directly heating the radiators and taps, it heats the water in the tank? Or are such instantaneous combi boilers not suitable for such duty?
Is it better maybe to have some kind of valve which permits both systems in parallel? Ie radiators could be fed either from a hot water tank or by the instant heater system depending on how the valve is set? Or is that just too complicated and asking for trouble?
What do you think?
One could of course use the radiator circuit of the combi to heat a multi coil thermal store, as described above and use the woodstove to heat another coil in the same thermal store.
The thermal store would then heat the radiators and domestic hot water.
My suggestion would be to retain the LPG combi "as is" presuming its in good working order.
Use the wood stove to heat a completly independant radiator circuit, this is simple with no heat exchangers or thermal stores needed.
It does of course mean buying and installing additional radiators, but they are not expensive.
Whether or not you decide to keep the LPG boiler, I would certainly keep the bulk LPG tank.
Consider installing gas lights and perhaps a gas fire of this tank, many other very useful LPG appliances are available and make a good backup at times when wind or solar input is limited and the stove not lit.
"Installers and owners of emergency diesels must assume that they will have to run for a week or more"
Using a woodstove to heat radiators directly is inefficient I feel. Assuming 1KW per radiator you need a big stove to run 5-6 radiators. Our little rayburn is only 6Kw output in total, so similar fueling requirements to a smallish woodburner. 4kw goes to the room and 2 kw to the water. By storing the heat through the day in a tank, we can power four radiators for a few hours, even when the stove has died down in the morning. So, if possible take the radiators from a heat store and put all your inputs to a heat store. That way no heat is wasted and you can get heat out while you're not putting heat in.
I spent weeks thinking about all this, and I now have a simply system (all independent systems linked at the tank), that works wonderfully for very little wood input.
I spent weeks thinking about all this, and I now have a simply system (all independent systems linked at the tank), that works wonderfully for very little wood input.
Jim
For every complex problem, there is a simple answer, and it's wrong.
"Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs" (Lao Tzu V.i).
For every complex problem, there is a simple answer, and it's wrong.
"Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs" (Lao Tzu V.i).
Re: Water Heating
As JohnB says, it's probably not going to be necessary to use radiators while the woodstove is going. It's a very small house.adam2 wrote: It sounds as though the existing appliance is an LPG combi boiler, in which case radiators cant be fed from a combi and a wood stove.
One could of course use the radiator circuit of the combi to heat a multi coil thermal store, as described above and use the woodstove to heat another coil in the same thermal store.
The thermal store would then heat the radiators and domestic hot water.
My suggestion would be to retain the LPG combi "as is" presuming its in good working order.
Use the wood stove to heat a completly independant radiator circuit, this is simple with no heat exchangers or thermal stores needed.
It does of course mean buying and installing additional radiators, but they are not expensive.
But at the same time, we would like to get hot water from the woodburner.
I guess the main question is whether to keep the existing system as-is and add a hot water tank for domestic water as a switchable circuit (ie we could choose whether to pull from the LPG combi or the hot water tank when running a bath) - or to split the systems apart and have the combi just run the radiators while all domestic water comes from the tank.
Since all approaches seem feasible in practice, and I can't really tell which is most energy/cost efficient, I guess we'll decide based on the time, effort and cost required to do the work.