Have you ever come across a major conspiracy?

[Vortex]

Whilst conspiracies do exist, they are probably rather rare and generally unimportant.

I have worked in the defence, nuclear and other industries and have come across 'interesting' stories which probably are close to being true.

These would certainly make the front page of a Sunday paper ... but world changing they are not.

I certainly have not heard of any major conspiracy from anyone I have ever met in my life - and I have met all sorts of people from all sorts of industries, including many senior people.

Now over to you: have YOU ever come across any SOLID indication of a MAJOR conspiracy?

Please exclude price fixing or similar restraint of trade plots - that is sadly rather common.

Please exclude any 'coverups' of industrial or nuclear safety - these aren't really MAJOR plots.

Please exclude any 'evidence' you have obtained from a web site or book.

Please focus on direct experience or RELIABLE hints or reports you have received from close friends or family that you trust.

[contadino]

Please exclude price fixing or similar restraint of trade plots - that is sadly rather common.

Please exclude any 'coverups' of industrial or nuclear safety - these aren't really MAJOR plots.

Well, those two are pretty major in my book. I've had direct contact with dozens of the first, and at least 3 of the second type. They were probably one of the primary reasons that I quit my 'career' and changed direction.

[Ludwig]

I don't think it proves much if a bunch of tree-huggers like us haven't got direct evidence for, say, CIA assassinations.

It's ridiculous to say one shouldn't make provisional assumptions from strong circumstantial evidence.

[contadino]

I don't think it proves much if a bunch of tree-huggers like us haven't got direct evidence for, say, CIA assassinations.

Yeah, sure. If I had evidence of a CIA assassination, I certainly wouldn't be posting up on any forums about it. In fact I wouldn't tell a living soul.

[Bandidoz]

Well I would cite Operation Northwoods, although I haven't seen the declassified documents myself, but a copy of them in a book.

Pretty sh!te poll, so many conditions attached that only the dead would be able to say "Yes".

[PS_RalphW]

Hard thing to define conspiracy. A reasonable definition might be a concerted attempt at lying by people in power to obtain an end that they would not be allowed to obtain if they told the truth.

Well known examples include Iran/Contra affair. The lead-up to the Iraq invasion is now quite well documented. The 'Downing Street Memo' clearly indicates that the decision to invade was made many months in advance, and the rest was just window dressing. More interesting is the 'joint energy security council' which the US/UK set up at about the same time, and which is still officially denied to exist by the UK, although the US admitted it under it's freedom of information act. They famous Cheney meetings with oil companies in 2000 is a still a subject of debate for some. The rumours are that it was an analysis of Iraqi oil potentail, and early planning for the invasion.

[Vortex]

Pretty sh!te poll, so many conditions attached that only the dead would be able to say "Yes".

Wrong.

I'm simply looking for the prevalence of Bay Of Pigs type scenarios, not, say, coverups of very minor radiation leaks.

Anyway, you are totally free to devise your own improved poll.

[Vortex]

I've had direct contact with dozens of the first, and at least 3 of the second type.

Me too.

So it shows that naughtiness DOES exists out there, and that people such as us DO encounter it.

However ... if there is also mind blowing trickery going on, then why do we not hear of it, at least from close family and friends?

I suspect that this is due to the fact that organised MAJOR conspiracies involving TENS or HUNDREDS of participants are rarer than people imagine.

I'm NOT denying that such situations may exist - BUT it's probably not wise to attribute every economic downturn, death of a politician etc to SMERSH or President Bush.

[Bozzio]

Although not a family member or friend I have answered yes as I went to see William Rodriguez talk last year in London. His personal experience of being in the twin towers on 9/11 is direct proof that a plot other than the official one was taking place.

[Vortex]

Although not a family member or friend I have answered yes as I went to see William Rodriguez talk last year in London. His personal experience of being in the twin towers on 9/11 is direct proof that a plot other than the official one was taking place.

That's fair enough!

[Ludwig]

I suspect that this is due to the fact that organised MAJOR conspiracies involving TENS or HUNDREDS of participants are rarer than people imagine.

How rare is rare? Since we're self-consciously skirting round the subject we agreed we wouldn't bring up again(!), I personally am persuaded that 9/11 was at the very least allowed to happen by the US Government and security services. This is not a question of my having an a priori belief in a conspiracy, but of reading a lot about it, and being convinced that there was a plausible motive for it.

Since events like 9/11 are very rare, I can't disagree with what you say.

The question of how something that big might be pulled off without the truth getting out is, I acknowledge, an interesting one. I would say that one should not underestimate the power of intimidation. It's one thing to stick up for one's principles, but it's another to sacrifice the lives of one's family for them. It's a while since I read about 9/11, but I seem to recall that numerous witnesses did 180-degree turns in their accounts of the day's events.

And some suspicions are just rooted in common sense. If there was nothing to hide, I can't think of a single reason why the collapse of WTC7 would not even be mentioned in the 9/11 Commission Report. If the authorities really didn't know why it collapsed, why not say so? This was not some insignificant detail, it was the third steel-structured building in history to have collapsed due supposedly to fire - and collapsing just a few hours after and in close proximity to the first two.

Perhaps there was a good reason that I couldn't begin to imagine, like super-powerful evil aliens had been discovered there and the authorities didn't want to frighten people. But the WTC7 collapse is just one of literally dozens - possibly hundreds - of oddities surrounding 9/11.

Please don't accuse me of saying I know what happened on 9/11 because I don't. I think somtimes anti-conspiracy theorists are people who can't handle uncertainty: better to accept the official version of events, however incredible, because at least that's something that has the label "Truth" attached to it.

[energy-village]

Although not a family member or friend I have answered yes as I went to see William Rodriguez talk last year in London. His personal experience of being in the twin towers on 9/11 is direct proof that a plot other than the official one was taking place.

That's fair enough!

I seem to remember Noam Chomsky never wants to spend time on conspiracy theories. He seems to usually reply something along the lines of "Who cares who killed Kennedy? Jealous lover, gangsters, CIA - what does it matter?". Likewise even if 9/11 didn't happen as we are officially told, how significant is that compared to all the things we know DID happen next? (laws, wars, new powers etc).

[OrraLoon]

I've had direct contact with dozens of the first, and at least 3 of the second type.

Me too.

So it shows that naughtiness DOES exists out there, and that people such as us DO encounter it.

However ... if there is also mind blowing trickery going on, then why do we not hear of it, at least from close family and friends?

I suspect that this is due to the fact that organised MAJOR conspiracies involving TENS or HUNDREDS of participants are rarer than people imagine.

I'm NOT denying that such situations may exist - BUT it's probably not wise to attribute every economic downturn, death of a politician etc to SMERSH or President Bush.

Sometimes conspiracy theories seem to take the place of ideological discipline [a la LATOC].

But maybe MAJOR conspiracies shouldn't really need to be that common?

[Ludwig]

I seem to remember Noam Chomsky never wants to spend time on conspiracy theories. He seems to usually reply something along the lines of "Who cares who killed Kennedy? Jealous lover, gangsters, CIA - what does it matter?". Likewise even if 9/11 didn't happen as we are officially told, how significant is that compared to all the things we know DID happen next? (laws, wars, new powers etc).

That's quite right. 9/11 is interesting symbolically, but even supposing we did find out the truth, what difference would it make? Bringing the perpetrators, whoever they are, to justice is not going to stop the world's descent into chaos.

[Bozzio]

Although not a family member or friend I have answered yes as I went to see William Rodriguez talk last year in London. His personal experience of being in the twin towers on 9/11 is direct proof that a plot other than the official one was taking place.

That's fair enough!

I seem to remember Noam Chomsky never wants to spend time on conspiracy theories. He seems to usually reply something along the lines of "Who cares who killed Kennedy? Jealous lover, gangsters, CIA - what does it matter?". Likewise even if 9/11 didn't happen as we are officially told, how significant is that compared to all the things we know DID happen next? (laws, wars, new powers etc).

Although I agree that looking to the future is more important than worrying about the past I disagree with Chomsky on this as all too often the former is shaped by what happened in the latter. It's all very well to suggest that key events of the past are not important but if you learn nothing by them and fail to expose conspiracies where possible then the population will continue to be led up the proverbially garden path. Would the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and the untold suffering to our soldiers be tolerated if 9/11 were exposed? Would we be so keen to believe what the US says about Iran?

Chomsky should be ashamed.