Yearning and Longing

[mikepepler]

Relating to the survival of these "lifeboats", has anyone read The Death of Grass? It's being discussed here:
http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/vie ... =8606#8606

[isenhand]

Nope, but it sounds interesting so it will go on my readers list

The idea od civilisation collaps pops up often in sci-fi. I always think of Mad Max.

[isenhand]

hey isenhand - any particular reason you ignore the conveniently named

tag in favour of those odd double chevrons << >>

I find it hard to follow your posts.

Yes, its because I cut an past from word so I can at least get most of the spelling right.

Sorry.

[Andy Hunt]

<< I think there will be a large attrition of population over a relatively short space of time>>

Maybe that will happen. I think we can actually support more people and haven?t reached a limit yet but we can?t do that yet not the way we are doing things now. If we have network of communities as the main way of living than we could support the population we have now and maybe even more. That depends on what we do today. If we try to maintain what we have we will lose it, if we go for something radically different we will be able to live well.

I wasn't so much thinking of people eating each other as increased deaths due to malnutrition and cold for a period of, say, 50 years. If you think about it, few people live to more than 100 anyway, so if there were no new births, within a century everyone on the planet would be dead.

I hope you are right about the numbers we can support, and of course that is what we must aim for. I agree that we need to totally restructure our life-support systems - the main ones being energy and farming of course.

Personally, I think there will be a decline, but that it can be managed to avoid excess social strife. The remaining resources such as natural gas can be allocated to the old and vulnerable, and after they are exhausted, we simply won't be able to support the old and vulnerable, except in our own homes, heated with wood, GSHP or whatever - much like the 'olden days'.

I think it will basically be a return to timeless ways of living, with the advantage that we have a huge excess of technology and knowledge which we can cherry-pick to make life easier. The main disadvantage will be the hardship we will experience during the 'phase transition' to sustainable living.

But to honour the analogy, we are all very much 'in the same boat'.

[isenhand]

I don?t know about the numbers. I really base it on the fact that we waste so much of our food as it is. Just with being more efficient we can support more people. Then, post peak, there is a lot of land even in the cities that could be more efficiently utilised using methods such as permaculture, digging up covered up land, using gardens and windows etc.

Its interesting to note that Limits of Growth (30 years update) gives an upper figure of 8 Gppl in a sustainable society, which if I was to go for a figure sounds about right to me. At least, I think that that is possible.

Whether or not we will be able to do that depends on very much what we do now. I think we need a radical change of direction and there is no fix that will keep us going. Sadly, I don?t think that will really happen so maybe the decline you talk about is the most likely out come

NB. Gpp = Giga people i.e. 10^9. I stay away from he word ?billion? as it has multiple meanings.

[thorgal]

Limits to Growth : the 30 year update -> good read.
I don't know why some people don't take this club of Rome seriously. If what they say is summarized in this book, I can only agree with this club.

And what a conclusion (by MIT scientists) :
- take it easy, love each other and always tell the truth

If we literaly all did that, I bet we would feel much much better, and the world around us would seem not bad a place to be in