I admit that they do look a lot better than my solution but are lacking in the following:
Imbedded energy (sorry for the pun) of a four poster is probably larger than my insulated duvet/mattress.
Economic costs are probably greater
Ability to get them up modern apartment stairs is difficult
Weight on floors could be a problem
they would take up a lot more room than my solution.
now I just need a backer....
Insulation on the cheap
Moderator: Peak Moderation
Thing is, a four-poster keeps the draughts off even when you're not (both) completely under the duvet . . . 
Andy Hunt
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
Eternal Sunshine wrote: I wouldn't want to worry you with the truth.
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biffvernon
- Posts: 18538
- Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
- Location: Lincolnshire
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Looks like clv101's been down to Ikea again.
Nice work Pippa - the do less strategy in action. But what's the 6 metre pile foundations for a timber barn all about. Are you building in a lake? Traditionally, timber framed buildings don't have foundations. Not at all. Not even a little bit. I'm sure you know the difference between the 'Requirements' of the Buildings Regs and all the Guidance that some folk think is the law.
Nice work Pippa - the do less strategy in action. But what's the 6 metre pile foundations for a timber barn all about. Are you building in a lake? Traditionally, timber framed buildings don't have foundations. Not at all. Not even a little bit. I'm sure you know the difference between the 'Requirements' of the Buildings Regs and all the Guidance that some folk think is the law.
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biffvernon
- Posts: 18538
- Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
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Pippa, go to the ODPM website and go to Building regs - Approved Documents and look at the relevant document. Here
Structure (Part A) is a pdf Here
On page 5 there is a section entitled 'Requirements' printed on a green background. This is the law, passed by Parliament. It's just a couple of paragraphs and basically says you have to build in such a way that the 'stability of the building' is not impaired by loading, wind, and ground movement, ie it wont fall down. If you design a building to cope with movement, as in a traditional timber frame, then it's stability is not impaired by a lack of foundation. This is about the danger of falling down, not the maintenance of a level floor through the centuries.
The next 40 pages of the document are 'Guidance' and this is just what it says - guidance, not requirement. The tricky bit is that if you don't follow the guidance then the onus is upon you to demonstrate to the Building Control Officer (and convince him) that your structure meets the Requirement for stability. There is of course a right of appeal against adverse decisions but it is always better to to discuss your plans with the BCO and get him onside before formally applying.
The trouble with the Building Regs is that they were written with standard construction methods and materials in mind so look, at first sight, not to fit well with either traditional methods nor radical new methods. But that does not mean that the 'Guidance' must be followed in all cases.
Structure (Part A) is a pdf Here
On page 5 there is a section entitled 'Requirements' printed on a green background. This is the law, passed by Parliament. It's just a couple of paragraphs and basically says you have to build in such a way that the 'stability of the building' is not impaired by loading, wind, and ground movement, ie it wont fall down. If you design a building to cope with movement, as in a traditional timber frame, then it's stability is not impaired by a lack of foundation. This is about the danger of falling down, not the maintenance of a level floor through the centuries.
The next 40 pages of the document are 'Guidance' and this is just what it says - guidance, not requirement. The tricky bit is that if you don't follow the guidance then the onus is upon you to demonstrate to the Building Control Officer (and convince him) that your structure meets the Requirement for stability. There is of course a right of appeal against adverse decisions but it is always better to to discuss your plans with the BCO and get him onside before formally applying.
The trouble with the Building Regs is that they were written with standard construction methods and materials in mind so look, at first sight, not to fit well with either traditional methods nor radical new methods. But that does not mean that the 'Guidance' must be followed in all cases.
Biff
Thanks for the link. For just a moment I thought I'd found a ray of light, a chance that we might be able to stand still (now that would be progress!) Unfortunately, I can't see how I could firstly convince the customer and then take on the liability for no piling. The reason why piles have been specified is that the area where the barn is is heavy clay and the site currently has alot of mature trees and a number of them are going to be chopped down. So ground heave is the issue . If the property did suffer from subsidence because of heave their would be a hefty claim. In addition to the re-built barn there are going to be two brick additions which will be the sleeping areas and kitchen, so there is a mix of building methods. Structural engineers have been consulted, soil samples taken, blar blar blar.
Thanks for the link. For just a moment I thought I'd found a ray of light, a chance that we might be able to stand still (now that would be progress!) Unfortunately, I can't see how I could firstly convince the customer and then take on the liability for no piling. The reason why piles have been specified is that the area where the barn is is heavy clay and the site currently has alot of mature trees and a number of them are going to be chopped down. So ground heave is the issue . If the property did suffer from subsidence because of heave their would be a hefty claim. In addition to the re-built barn there are going to be two brick additions which will be the sleeping areas and kitchen, so there is a mix of building methods. Structural engineers have been consulted, soil samples taken, blar blar blar.
loft insulation
I went up into my loft yesterday for the very first time (I've been living here for almost a year now)... it was a remarkably pleasurable experience because it was so much easer than I thought it was going to be because of the very good pull down ladder system that I didn't know was there... because of the double bayonet lighting system up there hooked up to a long pull cord that is immediately accessible on reaching the top of the ladders... & because it's a huuuge space!
Unfortunately there is some very nasty fibre glass insulation on the floor, about a 1/3 of which s covered by some sort of click together boarding (looks like chipboard) that actually feels very secure. The insulation is very toxic... made me cough lots & sneeze lots & gave me adry scratchy throat (yes I know I should have been wearing a disposable face/breathing mask). Now the thing is, I'd like to replace the nasty insulation thats there with something else. Can anyone advise on a suitable product? Am I right in thinking that it needs to be 250 mm thick.
Also, some of this nasty fibre glass stuff has been roughly wrapped around the small square metal tank up there... I presume this tank is some sort of water tank...? I have a single gas fired boiler for instant hot water, no immersion, no central heating (about to have multi-fule stove installed)... so, what would this meatal tank be for..?
The other thing that I was very aware of was that the sloping roof on eah side also was not insulated in any way... I could see the underside of the roof tiles/slates... & noticed there were 3 or 4 small patches of daylight which suggested o me that there may be very small holes in the roof... or is it natural to see very small shafts of daylight through the roof?
I'm just wondering if some of the tiles may have moved or chipped or need repalcing...? Also, it felt somewhat chilly up there early in the morning... wouldn't it be a much better conservation of energy if the sloping roof was insulated... you know sort of in between the wooden joists on top of/against the underside of the roof tiles...?
Any advice info/advice would be greatly appreciated. Oh, there's also what apears to be some sort of quite large light pink-orange nest up there with creme concentric ridges around it... a friend has said it sounds like a wasps nest...? what do I do woth that? Do I just leave it...? I'd be really please to receive your thoughts/ideas...
Unfortunately there is some very nasty fibre glass insulation on the floor, about a 1/3 of which s covered by some sort of click together boarding (looks like chipboard) that actually feels very secure. The insulation is very toxic... made me cough lots & sneeze lots & gave me adry scratchy throat (yes I know I should have been wearing a disposable face/breathing mask). Now the thing is, I'd like to replace the nasty insulation thats there with something else. Can anyone advise on a suitable product? Am I right in thinking that it needs to be 250 mm thick.
Also, some of this nasty fibre glass stuff has been roughly wrapped around the small square metal tank up there... I presume this tank is some sort of water tank...? I have a single gas fired boiler for instant hot water, no immersion, no central heating (about to have multi-fule stove installed)... so, what would this meatal tank be for..?
The other thing that I was very aware of was that the sloping roof on eah side also was not insulated in any way... I could see the underside of the roof tiles/slates... & noticed there were 3 or 4 small patches of daylight which suggested o me that there may be very small holes in the roof... or is it natural to see very small shafts of daylight through the roof?
I'm just wondering if some of the tiles may have moved or chipped or need repalcing...? Also, it felt somewhat chilly up there early in the morning... wouldn't it be a much better conservation of energy if the sloping roof was insulated... you know sort of in between the wooden joists on top of/against the underside of the roof tiles...?
Any advice info/advice would be greatly appreciated. Oh, there's also what apears to be some sort of quite large light pink-orange nest up there with creme concentric ridges around it... a friend has said it sounds like a wasps nest...? what do I do woth that? Do I just leave it...? I'd be really please to receive your thoughts/ideas...
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emordnilap
- Posts: 14815
- Joined: 05 Sep 2007, 16:36
- Location: here
Sheep's wool is fantastic insulation, Helen. Try investigating that angle. You can put it in yourself, it's excellent to work with (the lanolin) but if you've vegan tendencies, go for hemp instead.
It sounds like you need to get a roof expert up there to investigate the daylight. There should be none through the tiles. In fact, why can you see the tiles? There should be a vapour barrier between them and the rafters.
It sounds like you need to get a roof expert up there to investigate the daylight. There should be none through the tiles. In fact, why can you see the tiles? There should be a vapour barrier between them and the rafters.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
1) Why not cover the existing insulation to prevent any of its fibres becoming airborne?
2) I guess you'll only really need to insulate the ceiling of the roof if you want to spend lots of time up there?
2) I guess you'll only really need to insulate the ceiling of the roof if you want to spend lots of time up there?
Olduvai Theory (Updated) (Reviewed)
Easter Island - a warning from history : http://dieoff.org/page145.htm
Easter Island - a warning from history : http://dieoff.org/page145.htm
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RenewableCandy
- Posts: 12777
- Joined: 12 Sep 2007, 12:13
- Location: York
Sounds to me like a bog-standard "cold" attic space. No need for insulation between the rafters as (I assume) your attic isn't heated. The tank's probably a relic from a previous plumbing system (as ours was). There should be a bit of ventilation up there to prevent condensation in the cold space. The daylight's not too bad a problem if you're looking down between the tiles. In fact when you put in your new insulation (thermafleece the sheepswool stuff is nice but costly. There's also Warmcel, which is recycled paper) there should be little gaps at the eaves to let the air circulate.
We used our attic space for storing apples. Cool but no frost. Very good it was, too.
We used our attic space for storing apples. Cool but no frost. Very good it was, too.
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adam2
- Site Admin
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- Joined: 02 Jul 2007, 17:49
- Location: North Somerset, twinned with Atlantis
I dont think that this would work, even in cold conditions a human body is continually losing water in the form of perspiration.newmac wrote:My new business idea (anyone want to join)?
During the night people use duvets/mattresses to protect them from the elements. As these are not all that well insulated they also need the room to be heated.
Modern technology should allow duvets/mattresses to be heat stores if the outside of the duvet and underside of the mattress are well insulated to stop heat escaping. This could done using a mixture of reflextive materials and trapped air - similar to radiator reflextors.
Insulating your bed well could mean that you could have the central heating down or off during the night. Potential massive savings.
What do you think?
Adding to the mattress or bedding any vapour proof reflective layer, would trap this moisture which would condense and cause mould or other damage.
The reflective foil blankets used as survival equipment have saved lives in cold emergencies but are quite unsuitable for everyday use on a bed, due to the build up of condensation.
Woolen blankets are preferable to those of synthetic materials since they are warm but do not trap moisture.
With sufficient warm blankets and suitable nightwear, I find it warm in bed even at room temperatures close to freezing.
If such conditions are prolonged however, bedding is apt to become damp, to avoid this either use an electric blanket, or from time to time warm/dry the blankets in a tumbe dryer.
The energy used by the tumble dryer is not that great, since it is only removing slight damp, and not drying something that is wet from being washed.
"Installers and owners of emergency diesels must assume that they will have to run for a week or more"
We never had our central heating on at night either...are there really folk out there that do that? In Finland perhaps? Probably won't be many doing that this winter with gas up 40%.newmac wrote:My new business idea (anyone want to join)?
During the night people use duvets/mattresses to protect them from the elements. As these are not all that well insulated they also need the room to be heated.
Modern technology should allow duvets/mattresses to be heat stores if the outside of the duvet and underside of the mattress are well insulated to stop heat escaping. This could done using a mixture of reflextive materials and trapped air - similar to radiator reflextors.
Insulating your bed well could mean that you could have the central heating down or off during the night. Potential massive savings.
What do you think?
Duvets are pretty good insulators already, its all that air trapped inside. Just a question of how thick your duvet is!
Helen - re sheep fleece as insulation -
I'd agree with Bandidoz' idea of laying extra insulation over the fibreglass -
(which is so nasty that if someone invented it now it probably wouldn't be allowed).
The highly processed blocks of processed sheep fleece are really expensive,
but the fleeces can be got from farms more cheaply (at shearing-time in June & July)
and would only need a simple treatment with Borax to deter moths.
In case it might be worthwhile for you to transport some woolsacks from here (Elan, mid-Wales) to your home in Middlesex,
rather than to wait for your local farms' fleeces next summer,
I'd add that I've held onto about 500 fleeces from our Welsh Mountain flock.
Regards,
Billhook
I'd agree with Bandidoz' idea of laying extra insulation over the fibreglass -
(which is so nasty that if someone invented it now it probably wouldn't be allowed).
The highly processed blocks of processed sheep fleece are really expensive,
but the fleeces can be got from farms more cheaply (at shearing-time in June & July)
and would only need a simple treatment with Borax to deter moths.
In case it might be worthwhile for you to transport some woolsacks from here (Elan, mid-Wales) to your home in Middlesex,
rather than to wait for your local farms' fleeces next summer,
I'd add that I've held onto about 500 fleeces from our Welsh Mountain flock.
Regards,
Billhook
When we moved in we had 100mm fibreglass. Put another 170mm fibreglass on top then 200mm spaceblanket (fibreglass wrapped in plastic/foil) on top of that. No problems with fibre/dust and is probably the cheapest option if money is tight.
Some eco stuff we looked at looked just as bad as fibreglass - the wool looked better, but is v expensive. I would think hard if you have any history of animal allergies - likely to set them off laying it.
Some eco stuff we looked at looked just as bad as fibreglass - the wool looked better, but is v expensive. I would think hard if you have any history of animal allergies - likely to set them off laying it.