Yearning and Longing

newmac · Post by **newmac** » 08 Nov 2005, 07:45

Peter Kropotkin "Mutual Aid - a factor of evolution" is giving me some hope at the moment. Argues that within a species mutual aid and support is a major factor of Darwinian evolutional theory and not just the classic struggle and contest that people think of with survival of the fittest.

MacG · Post by **MacG** » 08 Nov 2005, 07:45

isenhand wrote:The changes that this society will suddenly go through is already being set now. Small things are happening and when there is enough there will be a sudden change.

I think of the space shuttle "Columbia". And Titanic.

isenhand · Post by **isenhand** » 08 Nov 2005, 12:41

MacG wrote:
isenhand wrote:The changes that this society will suddenly go through is already being set now. Small things are happening and when there is enough there will be a sudden change.
I think of the space shuttle "Columbia". And Titanic.

There is more going on than that. Think of projects like future communities, permaculture and other self-sufficient things. Which things going on in society will end up causing a phase change is hard to see. Some times it can be a small thing that nobody notices that can cause society to change into a completely new direction. Only time will tell but we do have an advantage over most complex systems; we can think ahead and plan.

MacG · Post by **MacG** » 08 Nov 2005, 13:39

isenhand wrote:
MacG wrote:
isenhand wrote:The changes that this society will suddenly go through is already being set now. Small things are happening and when there is enough there will be a sudden change.
I think of the space shuttle "Columbia". And Titanic.
There is more going on than that. Think of projects like future communities, permaculture and other self-sufficient things. Which things going on in society will end up causing a phase change is hard to see. Some times it can be a small thing that nobody notices that can cause society to change into a completely new direction. Only time will tell but we do have an advantage over most complex systems; we can think ahead and plan.

What about an allegory?

It dont make sense to get out in a lifeboat as long as the big ship is afloat. It's cold and nasty out in those small boats. It would, however, make sense to try to indulge the crew in a round of poker or something, and by clever cheating make them lose and lose until they put a lifeboat as collateral for a loan! Then it would make sense to practice the floating of the lifeboat and get plans ready to gather if an emergency arise. Preferably just a little bit earlier than the crowd.

I'm thinking about forming some kind of research institute to use as umbrella for people who want to apply for research grants in line with "powerdown". Although I intend to use a completely different language!

Andy Hunt · Post by **Andy Hunt** » 08 Nov 2005, 14:38

Think of projects like future communities, permaculture and other self-sufficient things. Which things going on in society will end up causing a phase change is hard to see. Some times it can be a small thing that nobody notices that can cause society to change into a completely new direction. Only time will tell but we do have an advantage over most complex systems; we can think ahead and plan.

I work as Sustainable Energy Officer for my local Council. I provide grants covering the installation costs of wood stoves and solar hot water panels for 'fuel poor' households. I've also set up a facility which takes the waste wood in the borough and converts it into wood fuel, which can be delivered to householders at a discounted price.

There is probably enough waste wood in the borough to fuel around 1200 households - nowhere near the 67,000 total in the borough, but with additional resources from the local forestry commission, I might begin to make a dent in the problem. Solar hot water panels provide hot water during the summer, so no wood fuel is needed for 6 months of the year.

I suppose my concern with practical solutions, rather than theorising about post-peak conditions might make me a 'pragmatist', in Tess's book. Presumably the 'fluffybunnyists' are those who talk and think about the problems, but don't actually DO anything about them, thinking that everything will somehow be OK in the end.

I don't think I am a 'survivalist', as the emphasis there seems to be on individual solutions. I don't think that long-term the 'survivalist' strategy is a very rewarding one - only coherent communities will manage to survive the coming problems. I fully expect there to be a period of attrition before stabilisation - for example, a scramble for wood stoves, and fighting over fuel. I also expect people to resort to burning coal in the short-term (and whatever else will burn, in fact!)

Bandidoz · Post by **Bandidoz** » 08 Nov 2005, 15:07

I think both the "FluffyBunnyIsts" and "Survivalists" are those who are doing something and are operating on the mantra of "others will come to us in times of need". For survivalists, the intent of the "others" would be to take over. For fluffybunnyists, the intent would be to embrace their way of doing things. Both involve not educating the masses, either because "we don't want them to find us" or "they will come to us when they need to". Seek-and-destroy, or seek-and-join. To me these are dangerous approaches.

I saw a programme on C4 the other night about the Moors in Spain, they were an advanced, peaceful civilisation, who worked wonders on the land, making it tremendously productive. Then the Christians came along with their swords, bringing about the end of the society.

I don't think we've yet coined a term for the Apathists - Sitting on the Fenceists - Burying Head in the Sandists etc

Andy Hunt · Post by **Andy Hunt** » 08 Nov 2005, 16:42

To borrow a Biblical term, it may well be at the end of the day that there are only two types of people in the petro-apocalypse - the "quick" and the "dead" . . .

RevdTess · Post by **RevdTess** » 08 Nov 2005, 16:45

My wild use of language is taking on a life of its own!

By fluffybunnies I meant those people for whom petrocollapse can only be a good thing, as a new age of enlightened co-operation will ensue as the world simultaneously realises within its global consciousness that sustainable peaceful community is the crowning glory of humanity.

By survivalists I meant those people who, well, know how to survive outside of civilisation, and who usually dont care too much about whether the rest of humanity makes it so long as their family is okay.

By pragmatists I meant the people who feel compassion for the world and its people but are under no illusions that a glorious aquarian age of beauty and selfless living will ensue as soon as we're forced out of our cars.

You may use the words as you choose!

Andy Hunt · Post by **Andy Hunt** » 08 Nov 2005, 16:57

What would you call someone who thinks that the world will go through a huge amount of suffering, but that it will be worth it in the end for the survivors? I suppose that's my 'take' on things.

Like the labour pains of childbirth which cause so much strife, but once it is all over, the new life makes all the pain worthwhile!

Certainly if I didn't believe that it can (will) be OK in the end, I wouldn't really have an incentive for doing the job that I am doing. When you work in the field of energy, you have to aim for solutions, whilst not deluding yourself about the scale of the problems. Whilst others sit and wring their hands about all the problems we face, you have to be prepared to get up and actually do something about them.

Maybe I am an 'optimystic' . . .

RevdTess · Post by **RevdTess** » 08 Nov 2005, 17:18

Andy Hunt wrote:What would you call someone who thinks that the world will go through a huge amount of suffering, but that it will be worth it in the end for the survivors? I suppose that's my 'take' on things.

You are the arch-fluffybunny Andy!

newmac · Post by **newmac** » 08 Nov 2005, 17:20

Andy, I think the word you are looking for is Neo-conservative.

Andy Hunt · Post by **Andy Hunt** » 08 Nov 2005, 17:29

Blimey - fluffy bunny or neo-con. A difficult choice! How much more extreme could those two opposites be?!!

I suppose it just goes to show you can't pigeonhole people.

There is currently a discussion on the "Energy Resources" list about what 'people like us' should be called. There's a debate raging between the "Doomers" who believe that the great 'die-off' is inevitable, and the 'Peakniks', who believe that tackling PO is possible. Strange how the 'Doomers' are very proud to declare themselves such, and view the 'Peakniks' as being wildly over-optimistic. The 'Peakniks' on the other hand, view the 'Doomers' as being fatalistic and pretty much useless for a constructive discussion.

I suppose I am more 'Peaknik' than 'Doomer', although my view contains elements of both. How about "Cathartic Darwinist"?

isenhand · Post by **isenhand** » 09 Nov 2005, 06:50

MacG wrote:
I'm thinking about forming some kind of research institute to use as umbrella for people who want to apply for research grants in line with "powerdown". Although I intend to use a completely different language!

Great minds think a like or is it fools never differ?

I?ve been thinking of the same but using Holonic futures as the umbrella organisation. There are already a number of researchers in sustainable living in that group. I?m not sure how to go about getting a grant and if that will pay for people to or full time (pay + equipment costs). Vinnova wants industry and academia to cooperate and I suspect the same will be true other funding organisations. What about EU grants? From my experience with those they are little boy clubs and you need a partner in Southern Europe. What are your thoughts? What about other people in the UK or else where? Any chance of forming out own little boys club and going for a research grant?

New thread anyone?

isenhand · Post by **isenhand** » 09 Nov 2005, 06:54

<< It dont make sense to get out in a lifeboat as long as the big ship is afloat.>>

Titanic in that sense if a good analogy. We are not yet sinking but we can see an iceberg looming and the captain is a sleep! I was just trying to be more positive; instead of thinking of the disaster to come I was thinking of the opertunity we have to build something better.

isenhand · Post by **isenhand** » 09 Nov 2005, 06:56

Andy Hunt wrote:
Think of projects like future communities, permaculture and other self-sufficient things. Which things going on in society will end up causing a phase change is hard to see. Some times it can be a small thing that nobody notices that can cause society to change into a completely new direction. Only time will tell but we do have an advantage over most complex systems; we can think ahead and plan.
I work as Sustainable Energy Officer for my local Council.

There you go! One small bit that could be part of the phase change