Is current PV solar viable?

[emordnilap]

Customers will be able to switch from their current supplier to Stortford Green. We will then survey their home to see if its suitable for microgenation technologies.

If it is, we will fund the installation and it will all be paid for via the energy bill.

We believe we are the first full renewable energy services company (ESCo) in the UK.

We only install financially viable technologies. That's because unless it pays for its self we go bust

Oh and one more thing, the energy you use over the amount you generate also comes from renewable sources.

Regards


Ian G
www.StortfordGreen.com

Fancy moving to Ireland?

[IanG]

Solar PV are completely fossil energy and don't recover the embedded energy during their lifetimes.

Our panels are made by Sharp in Wales, and if I remember correctly they recover the embedded energy in the first few years of operation. (the number 3 springs to mind but it may be a bit longer).

I did some math on solar PV some 7-8 years ago, and arrived at the conclusion that they did NOT represent any kind of "alternative" energy.

With respect, alot of opinions about PV were formed 6 / 7 years ago. When the numbers didn't add up.

Today they do.

Spain expect grid parity on PV in 2011, Germany 2013. These dates are falling with the rising price of oil. Would expect most here to understand that.

Guarantee is 25 years on the panels, expected asset life is 40 to 50 years.

Issue with the chinese panels is actual output is +/- 20% (never + ) and can have a real effect on system performance. Hence why we will only use top end panels such as Sharp.

We rent / fund through the energy bill. We also offer a purchase price during the initial agreement period; When customers see the underlying numbers for themselves and see the system working, we expect most customers to purchase the systems outright.

[Eternal Sunshine]

Customers will be able to switch from their current supplier to Stortford Green. We will then survey their home to see if its suitable for microgenation technologies.

This sounds interesting. Will you be supplying people who don't want solar panels as well (ie. people in rented housing who have no benefits from getting solar panels fitted) or just people who make a committment to have the panels fitted?

[IanG]

This sounds interesting. Will you be supplying people who don't want solar panels as well (ie. people in rented housing who have no benefits from getting solar panels fitted) or just people who make a committment to have the panels fitted?

Happy to supply to those who rent.

[contadino]

I've just found a nifty little website that tells you the kWh you should expect to get from a particular sized PV array. Apologies if it's already been mentioned. The thing it doesn't do is ask you which panels you're considering (and factor in their performance) but it's a good tool nonetheless.

http://sunbird.jrc.it/pvgis/apps/pvest.php

[contadino]

Isn't it the case that the high level of redundancy in PV modules in the UK climate makes them less viable? The iridescence (is that the right word?) is lower in the UK than warmer climates..?

Southern UK has the same levels as Germany where they have 300,000 installations compared to our 1,500.

Has more to do with government policy, than light levels.

Sure, that's true for grid-connected systems (AFAIK, German electricity companies are bound by legislation to pay 3 units for each one they buy from microgeneration installations.)

What about off-grid systems, though? If you just want to have a bit of security of electricity supply (lighting, for example) neither country offer any incentive.

[MacG]

With respect, alot of opinions about PV were formed 6 / 7 years ago. When the numbers didn't add up.

Today they do.

I assume that all companies involved in solar PV are using the panels themselves for their own needs then?

If not: Why?

[IanG]

I've just found a nifty little website that tells you the kWh you should expect to get from a particular sized PV array. Apologies if it's already been mentioned. The thing it doesn't do is ask you which panels you're considering (and factor in their performance) but it's a good tool nonetheless.

http://sunbird.jrc.it/pvgis/apps/pvest.php

There's also various modelling tools such as PVsyst.

We use PVsyst for all our financial projection modelling.

We use smart meters that send us daily load profiles of what the actual systems generate.

All modeling tools are conservative, PVsyst is 12 to 18% under what we actually achieve, but as we use it for our financial forecasts, if the projects work on PVsyst, then we're happy.

[IanG]

I assume that all companies involved in solar PV are using the panels themselves for their own needs then?

If not: Why?

Can't speak for other companies, but we are putting our money where our mouth is..... so to speak.

It's our cash we invest in customer's homes, so if it doesn't live up to expectations we lose.

[RenewableCandy]

Have a look at Bankier, C. and Gale, S. (2006) Energy Payback of Roof Mounted Photovoltaic Cells Energy Bulletin 16 June 2006, available from http://www.energybulletin.net/17219.html

Of the 16 studies reviewed, one showed a maximum possible payback time of 25 years (Mary Archer's gaff in Glasgow ?) the rest are pretty well clustered around 4 years or so.

Silicon and Aluminium are the main culprits, so Skeptic's roll-on thin-film job might put an end to all that.

[IanG]

Have a look at Bankier, C. and Gale, S. (2006) Energy Payback of Roof Mounted Photovoltaic Cells Energy Bulletin 16 June 2006, available from http://www.energybulletin.net/17219.html

Of the 16 studies reviewed, one showed a maximum possible payback time of 25 years (Mary Archer's gaff in Glasgow ?) the rest are pretty well clustered around 4 years or so.

Silicon and Aluminium are the main culprits, so Skeptic's roll-on thin-film job might put an end to all that.

Wholesale price of electricity in June 2006 was ?50 MWh June 2008 its ?90

Forward price for this winter is ?99/?105 -- Winter 2006 it was ?48

In 2006 if your payback at ?50MWh was 25 years ( worst case ) whats it when the underlying price is ?100 with Oil at $135.

If Oil goes beyond $200......

As I said earlier, a lot of opinions on PV were formed when oil was sub $20 and when mass electricity generation was cheap.... times have changed.

I was at Intersolar last month. A solar PV geek fest, which I can't begin to comprehend,... lots of talk about the various technologies, CPV various thin film,....

What I took from it is that traditional PV will still exist, thin film can't get to the same levels of output per sq mtr. Its cheaper, but it depends what you want more watts or cheaper panels. Most of us have limited roof space, so the existing panels make more sence. (I'm paraphrasing the CEO of qCells).

qCells is a great company. Didn't exist 9 years ago, last year turned over ?1bn this year will be ?2bn. All because the German government made their utilities pay the feed in tariffs.

Feed in generation is now bigger than RWE in Germany.... 17%. Its no wonder the German utilities opposed them there ( and two of the friends of DTI/BERR) are strongly against them here.

[Adam1]

Isn't it the case that the high level of redundancy in PV modules in the UK climate makes them less viable? The iridescence (is that the right word?) is lower in the UK than warmer climates..?

Southern UK has the same levels as Germany where they have 300,000 installations compared to our 1,500.

Has more to do with government policy, than light levels.

"Insolation" is the word that describes the amount of solar radiation.

the south west of the UK gets the same amount annually as southern Germany, according to this map...
http://www.energie-atlas.ch/side-w/map-eur-s-x01.htm

...from memory, the south west of the UK gets about 1200-1300kWhs per m2 per annum, assuming that the panels are optimally orientated. Of course, typically only about 15% of this gets converted into electricity by the panel

[RenewableCandy]

Have a look at Bankier, C. and Gale, S. (2006) Energy Payback of Roof Mounted Photovoltaic Cells Energy Bulletin 16 June 2006, available from http://www.energybulletin.net/17219.html

Of the 16 studies reviewed, one showed a maximum possible payback time of 25 years (Mary Archer's gaff in Glasgow ?) the rest are pretty well clustered around 4 years or so.

Silicon and Aluminium are the main culprits, so Skeptic's roll-on thin-film job might put an end to all that.

Wholesale price of electricity in June 2006 was ?50 MWh June 2008 its ?90

Forward price for this winter is ?99/?105 -- Winter 2006 it was ?48

In 2006 if your payback at ?50MWh was 25 years ( worst case ) whats it when the underlying price is ?100 with Oil at $135.

If Oil goes beyond $200......

As I said earlier, a lot of opinions on PV were formed when oil was sub $20 and when mass electricity generation was cheap.... times have changed.

I was at Intersolar last month. A solar PV geek fest, which I can't begin to comprehend,... lots of talk about the various technologies, CPV various thin film,....

What I took from it is that traditional PV will still exist, thin film can't get to the same levels of output per sq mtr. Its cheaper, but it depends what you want more watts or cheaper panels. Most of us have limited roof space, so the existing panels make more sence. (I'm paraphrasing the CEO of qCells).

qCells is a great company. Didn't exist 9 years ago, last year turned over ?1bn this year will be ?2bn. All because the German government made their utilities pay the feed in tariffs.

Feed in generation is now bigger than RWE in Germany.... 17%. Its no wonder the German utilities opposed them there ( and two of the friends of DTI/BERR) are strongly against them here.

Sorry didn't explain clearly enough, this is energy payback, not cost payback: how long it takes for the cell to reproduce the amount of energy used in its manufacture (plus transport, workers' lunches, etc).

Hell but I envy you, going to a Solar Geek-fest...

[IanG]

Sorry didn't explain clearly enough, this is energy payback, not cost payback: how long it takes for the cell to reproduce the amount of energy used in its manufacture (plus transport, workers' lunches, etc).

Earlier in the thread, I said I thought it was 3 years. Its the number I got when I first had a conversation with Sharp.


Sharp manufacture in Wales and this pdf (for another region) suggests 2.2 years so I think my original answer of 3 years was right.

Hell but I envy you, going to a Solar Geek-fest...

The two day conference before the exhibition was heavy going..... Introduction to thin film technologies seemed to assume you'd been in the business for a number of years and knew all the lingo....

The exhibition had over 1,000 exhibitors, and was in 5 aircraft hangers, some impressive stuff and all Solar PV / Solar thermal.

[RenewableCandy]

The two day conference before the exhibition was heavy going..... Introduction to thin film technologies seemed to assume you'd been in the business for a number of years and knew all the lingo....

The exhibition had over 1,000 exhibitors, and was in 5 aircraft hangers, some impressive stuff and all Solar PV / Solar thermal.

Phwoooaarr...I really do envy you!!

Good use for aircraft hangars, that