When should we sidestep 1200 strikers holding us to ransom?

revdode · Post by **revdode** » 27 Apr 2008, 16:08

Whatever their current conditions I don't blame them for trying to hold onto what they have. They will lose, and the disruption may be a pain, especially to those nearby, but it's hardly the end if the world and they have the right to withdraw their labour to protect the deal they have. Unless you are proposing that the right to withdraw our labour should be removed?

Vortex · Post by **Vortex** » 27 Apr 2008, 18:21

The Police & Army are not permitted to strike.
Perhaps other key workers should be included in this category.

More generally, why do you think Thatcher went after the miners?
I suspect it was partly because they went on strike during the war ... and they (or their descendants) paid for their blackmailing of the nation.

Perhaps Reagan back in 1981 had the right idea when he sacked the air traffic controllers when they went on strike. He replaced them with military controllers.

Britain will face tough times in the future and it will NOT help if every short sighted worker - or company - or 'rich kid' - with a bit of 'leverage' tries to use it to get ahead of the queue.

We will need the power to be on and the trains to be working if we are going to build & install wind turbines and the myriad of other systems which might help the population survive.

MacG · Post by **MacG** » 27 Apr 2008, 18:53

Vortex wrote:The Police & Army are not permitted to strike.
Perhaps other key workers should be included in this category.

More generally, why do you think Thatcher went after the miners?
I suspect it was partly because they went on strike during the war ... and they (or their descendants) paid for their blackmailing of the nation.

Perhaps Reagan back in 1981 had the right idea when he sacked the air traffic controllers when they went on strike. He replaced them with military controllers.

Britain will face tough times in the future and it will NOT help if every short sighted worker - or company - or 'rich kid' - with a bit of 'leverage' tries to use it to get ahead of the queue.

We will need the power to be on and the trains to be working if we are going to build & install wind turbines and the myriad of other systems which might help the population survive.

Well, that's pretty much the reasoning of the Nazis in Germany in the 1930's. Quite successful. For a period it was seen as "the German miracle", they arranged the Olympics in 1936 and Time Magazine made Hitler "Man of the Year" in 1939

Vortex · Post by **Vortex** » 27 Apr 2008, 19:21

Under Godwins Law this thread is over: the Nazi card has been played.

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Godwin has argued[4] that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact. Although in one of its early forms Godwin's Law referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions,[5] the law is now applied to any threaded online discussion: electronic mailing lists, message boards, chat rooms, and more recently blog comment threads and wiki talk pages.

revdode · Post by **revdode** » 27 Apr 2008, 19:21

Perhaps other key workers should be included in this category.

Define key workers, those at Ineos, bus drivers, train drivers, shelf stacker at Tesco?

I suspect it was partly because they went on strike during the war ...

Sorry what war are we talking about here? History isn't my subject.

Were the miners really blackmailing the nation or just trying to save their industry? I can't defend all union actions, like most organisations they act in pretty loathsome ways at time but the right of a worker to withdraw their labour is fairly fundamental. It's been an important tool to improve conditions in the past and will probably be used to try and hold on to some of those gains in the future.

Vortex wrote:Britain will face tough times in the future and it will NOT help if every short sighted worker - or company - or 'rich kid' - with a bit of 'leverage' tries to use it to get ahead of the queue.

They aren't trying to get ahead, they are trying to make sure that they keep what they have got. If the business follows others, first they close the pension scheme to new members. Then the promises made to existing members start falling apart. I lived in the same community as these folks, and am enough of a realist to know they won't win but I can't blame them for trying and I certainly find the idea of legislating to prevent them trying objectionable.

I'm sure we will face tough times and the pain will have to be shared, deciding how it is shared can be either by discussion or diktat.

Vortex · Post by **Vortex** » 27 Apr 2008, 19:30

Sorry what war are we talking about here? History isn't my subject.

The miners went on strike in both WW1 & WW2.

MacG · Post by **MacG** » 27 Apr 2008, 19:35

Vortex wrote:Under Godwins Law this thread is over: the Nazi card has been played.

Haha! I know that the issue is sensitive, specially among Britons, but has not enough time passed now that it should be possible with a little more detailed discussions about that period?

Germany WAS in ruins in the 1920's and chaos and poverty was widespread. Fascism was seen by MANY people as a rational choice, and they WERE successful in bringing both Germany and Italy in working order.

Europe was extremely polarized between socialism and fascism and emotions were raging. It was that polarization that laid the ground for recruitment of Kim Philby and friends.

Besides, the formal declaration of war was actually issued by the Britons...

Vortex · Post by **Vortex** » 27 Apr 2008, 19:49

I'm sure we will face tough times and the pain will have to be shared, deciding how it is shared can be either by discussion or diktat.

This whole thread has been an eye opener.

All this political bitching shows that people have no respect for maintaining the core infrastructure that the main population needs to maintain an orderly life.

I have instantly lost faith in any possibility of a 'controlled energy descent'.

Special interest groups will demand priority in the queue for resources - either through force or through guilt.

'Me and a few lads work at Grangemouth. If we don't get to keep OUR cushy life then YOUR lights go out. Your choice mate.'

'I run a hospital. All my nursing & management staff need free fuel otherwise the sick will suffer.'

'I run a newspaper. I need access to fuel for my private jet. The public need to be kept informed.'

'Fuel is now very expensive and my caravan holidays are under threat. Either you give me a special fuel allowance or the sewage pumps stop in this town.'

Clearly I will need to plan for the worst case as energy becomes short ...

Keepz · Post by **Keepz** » 27 Apr 2008, 20:18

Vortex wrote:
I have instantly lost faith in any possibility of a 'controlled energy descent'.

Special interest groups will demand priority in the queue for resources - either through force or through guilt.

'Me and a few lads work at Grangemouth. If we don't get to keep OUR cushy life then YOUR lights go out. Your choice mate.'

'I run a hospital. All my nursing & management staff need free fuel otherwise the sick will suffer.'

'I run a newspaper. I need access to fuel for my private jet. The public need to be kept informed.'

'Fuel is now very expensive and my caravan holidays are under threat. Either you give me a special fuel allowance or the sewage pumps stop in this town.'

That is exactly why politicians should not attempt to manage or control fuel supplies, despite what some on this forum have argued - once it is in the hands of politicians, it is vulnerable to special interest lobbying.

MacG · Post by **MacG** » 27 Apr 2008, 20:30

Keepz wrote:That is exactly why politicians should not attempt to manage or control fuel supplies, despite what some on this forum have argued - once it is in the hands of politicians, it is vulnerable to special interest lobbying.

Uhh... But people will ASK the politicians to take control. Promising political control when the gods of the market has abandoned us will be the highway to elected positions. What other options than voting do people have when faced with hard times?

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 27 Apr 2008, 22:48

Vortex wrote:All this political bitching shows that people have no respect for maintaining the core infrastructure that the main population needs to maintain an orderly life.

Right. So let's nationalise the refinery (and the rest of the energy infrastructure while we're at it). The workers will become Civil Servants and have the pension provision normal for the Civil Service. Everybody happy, including Vortex?

Adam1 · Post by **Adam1** » 27 Apr 2008, 23:19

Vortex - isn't this strike action a perfect example of the "Realpolitik" that you once told us is inevitable in the real world? I don't understand why you are so surprised by it now.

syberberg · Post by **syberberg** » 28 Apr 2008, 00:28

I thought this dispute started 8 months ago. Looks to me as though the current action is a last resort on the part of the workers.

And what's wrong with sons following their fathers' careers? Kept the mines, shipbuilding and steel works going in Britain for the majority of the last century. As well as various other cases of son taking over the running of his father's business.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 28 Apr 2008, 07:28

It was usual for the second son to become a vicar and take over the living. The first son had to run the estate.

Vortex · Post by **Vortex** » 28 Apr 2008, 08:11

Right. So let's nationalise the refinery (and the rest of the energy infrastructure while we're at it). The workers will become Civil Servants and have the pension provision normal for the Civil Service. Everybody happy, including Vortex?

Could work.

?30k - ?40k salaries plus contributory pension plus NO nepotism.