pop shove wallenburgggg
Moderator: Peak Moderation
pop shove wallenburgggg
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Last edited by hatchelt on 06 Mar 2011, 12:08, edited 3 times in total.
You don't seem to have received many answers to your good question.
I was hoping there would be some views.
We currently live in Oz, but all our families are in UK, and as dual passport holders we can choose either - or NZ.
Right now we are sticking with Oz, because of concerns over crowdedness/effects of climate change on UK , plus we prefer life here- but if push comes to shove I would choose family over long term survival if things got really tough (and assuming that I could still afford to get there!)
We are checking out various bits of Oz, and NZ over the next 12 months.
I was hoping there would be some views.
We currently live in Oz, but all our families are in UK, and as dual passport holders we can choose either - or NZ.
Right now we are sticking with Oz, because of concerns over crowdedness/effects of climate change on UK , plus we prefer life here- but if push comes to shove I would choose family over long term survival if things got really tough (and assuming that I could still afford to get there!)
We are checking out various bits of Oz, and NZ over the next 12 months.
Thanks Nancy. I think family for me would be the main sticking point. Imo, domestic flight will be one of the first things to go and I doubt it'll ever come back in my life time.
On this matter my friend writes:
I Understand the family deal & im planning on having mine with me, them and everyone else i care about. They are in a financial position to pay the extra when flight become expensive. & if i can have something for them to come to, some foundations & something tangible they are going to be alot more easily persuaded to make the move. This is going to be a hard pill to swallow for the older generations so proper preparation is acutely necessary
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On this matter my friend writes:
I Understand the family deal & im planning on having mine with me, them and everyone else i care about. They are in a financial position to pay the extra when flight become expensive. & if i can have something for them to come to, some foundations & something tangible they are going to be alot more easily persuaded to make the move. This is going to be a hard pill to swallow for the older generations so proper preparation is acutely necessary
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Last edited by hatchelt on 06 Mar 2011, 12:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Blue Peter
- Posts: 1939
- Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
- Location: Milton Keynes
Pros:hatchelt wrote:let's try not to get too caught up on the technicalities of the wording in the question. like i said, i'm after pros and cons for both staying here and leaving.
cheers
Know the country;
Know the language;
Know the people;
You're already where you want to be (roughly), so preparations are much easier;
It's not a bad place;
Reasonable climate (not too hot, not too cold, reasonable rain);
Cons:
Heavily populated;
Climate may change (the worry is the Gulf Stream turning off);
Some of the recent legislation is a little worrying (but then I suspect any country could and would do the same in the appropriate circumstances).
Peter.
Hatchelt,
A good place to start for raw facts & figures is the CIA world factbook: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/
It has the basic stats to allow you to work out things like population density, amount of arable land per head of population, what natural resources a country has, current environmental issues etc.
At the risk of being shot down in flames, I think NZ looks good:
1. Low population density.
2. Geographically remote (natural quarantine post aviation).
3. Temperate climate that isn't dependent on the Gulf Stream.
4. 4 times the amount of arable land per capita compared to UK.
5. Until 20 years ago, economy was largely agrarian so still large base of residual agricultural skills amongst population.
6. Significant indigenous population with deep understanding of the local environment to learn from.
7. English speaking.
8. Relatively easy immigration laws for UK citizens (for now).
9. Varied climate suggests monoculture agriculture is less likely, so shouldn't be too vulnerable to crop pests etc.
10. Very small mineral wealth so unlikely to become a target for US or Chinese resource-motivated agression.
11. Political minnow so unlikely to become major target for Jihad stylee nutters.
12. Nuclear free policy so no nasty waste sites to maintain after TSHTF.
13. A significant amount of electricity is already generated from renewables (hydro & geothermal).
The key drawbacks for me are:
1. Moving to New Zealand means starting from scratch with no friends or family.
2. When air travel stops (which lets face it, is going to be the first thing that goes), getting home will become very expensive & time consuming - if it takes weeks to get home, what do you do if your parents fall ill?
3. Would I really be prepared to deny my parents the chance to see their grandchildren grow up, or deny my children the chance to know their grandparents?
Oh, and of course half of Australia will probably try to get into NZ once they realise how much better placed New Zealand is to ride out the PO storm...
My "skilled migrant application" is filled in, but I'm delaying sending it while I work through all these questions...
A good place to start for raw facts & figures is the CIA world factbook: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/
It has the basic stats to allow you to work out things like population density, amount of arable land per head of population, what natural resources a country has, current environmental issues etc.
At the risk of being shot down in flames, I think NZ looks good:
1. Low population density.
2. Geographically remote (natural quarantine post aviation).
3. Temperate climate that isn't dependent on the Gulf Stream.
4. 4 times the amount of arable land per capita compared to UK.
5. Until 20 years ago, economy was largely agrarian so still large base of residual agricultural skills amongst population.
6. Significant indigenous population with deep understanding of the local environment to learn from.
7. English speaking.
8. Relatively easy immigration laws for UK citizens (for now).
9. Varied climate suggests monoculture agriculture is less likely, so shouldn't be too vulnerable to crop pests etc.
10. Very small mineral wealth so unlikely to become a target for US or Chinese resource-motivated agression.
11. Political minnow so unlikely to become major target for Jihad stylee nutters.
12. Nuclear free policy so no nasty waste sites to maintain after TSHTF.
13. A significant amount of electricity is already generated from renewables (hydro & geothermal).
The key drawbacks for me are:
1. Moving to New Zealand means starting from scratch with no friends or family.
2. When air travel stops (which lets face it, is going to be the first thing that goes), getting home will become very expensive & time consuming - if it takes weeks to get home, what do you do if your parents fall ill?
3. Would I really be prepared to deny my parents the chance to see their grandchildren grow up, or deny my children the chance to know their grandparents?
Oh, and of course half of Australia will probably try to get into NZ once they realise how much better placed New Zealand is to ride out the PO storm...
My "skilled migrant application" is filled in, but I'm delaying sending it while I work through all these questions...
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Blue Peter
- Posts: 1939
- Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
- Location: Milton Keynes
Thanks for everyones input so far, especially that link Joe!
New Zealand does seem to be the next best choice (if it wasn't for the distance from the family)...but you're right, the whole visa thing, getting settled, etc would take time which could be spent working on the land.
edit: mind you, i wonder if there's going to be a problem with immigration from china/asia?
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New Zealand does seem to be the next best choice (if it wasn't for the distance from the family)...but you're right, the whole visa thing, getting settled, etc would take time which could be spent working on the land.
edit: mind you, i wonder if there's going to be a problem with immigration from china/asia?
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Last edited by hatchelt on 06 Mar 2011, 12:08, edited 1 time in total.
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fishertrop
- Posts: 859
- Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
- Location: Sheffield
skeptik, I think you are being a bit harsh on hatchelt - I knew what he meant, the inexact wording doesn't make him/her a chump.
I think that the only cons against blighty are:
1) Overpopulation
2) Climate change
and everything else is positive (all things being relative of course!), maybe "positive" isn't the right word, perhaps I mean "less negative", lol
Joe's right, the CIA Factbook is a useful source of data for lots of things.
My main issue with relocation, and one that has done the rounds on other threads without reaching a consencous, is that of facing explusion from your new lands as part of a "last in first out" change to immigration policy, likely driven by the need most places will have to reduce populations.
I think NZ has lots to offer, but it's remotenes and comparative lack of fossils fuels (yes I said that) makes me think none of us would ever get to reap the benifits of the place.
We all know that most savy people could go in small bunches to places like NZ and the Irish republic (et al) and setup nice sustainable communities and live in peace - alas this is not true of the rest of the world, and we'll have to live with them.
In NZ, like so many other places, the gov can - at any time - decide to sling out all the recent arrivals, regardless of their added-value, if voter sentiment has turned xenophobic in some guise.
Alas, I think we'll see that in the UK in some form (we have a bit already...) and to be fair a lot of places like NZ would be better off in the long run using all (semi-fair) means to reduce their head-counts to a minimum.
I would say, if you are going to move then move NOW and get established - don't be the very last one in and hence the very first one out!
From my own point of view I'm sticking with blighty, I might relocate within the UK maybe, where I live (semi urban) has at least some potential in the medium term - law and order being the main concern, see seperate threads for that whole epic!
If you can move within the UK to a small village close (<10 miles) to a town (not big city) then I think you can maximise whats good about the UK while working to offset the downsides, tho granted it's HARD to offset the loss of the gulf stream
Certain parts of bigger cities I think will be ok in the medium term because they will be supported and secured by the government because of their value or status, but who wants to try and make it in the middle of the biggest Uk cities without plenty of system-support? Man thats a big ask.
I think families have value, but they are surely just one factor - if you found a fab oppertunity somewhere you might have to trade never seeing your greater family again for a decent life for you-and-yours. Personally I wouldn't let this one factor dominate.
We all know that doing the best for ourselves is sometimes contrary to whats best for everyone - we can't ALL move to NZ ! - and that's a personal call we all have to make. I'm trying not to let my self-interest go to far - I want to stay and do my bit to make things work.
I think that the only cons against blighty are:
1) Overpopulation
2) Climate change
and everything else is positive (all things being relative of course!), maybe "positive" isn't the right word, perhaps I mean "less negative", lol
Joe's right, the CIA Factbook is a useful source of data for lots of things.
My main issue with relocation, and one that has done the rounds on other threads without reaching a consencous, is that of facing explusion from your new lands as part of a "last in first out" change to immigration policy, likely driven by the need most places will have to reduce populations.
I think NZ has lots to offer, but it's remotenes and comparative lack of fossils fuels (yes I said that) makes me think none of us would ever get to reap the benifits of the place.
We all know that most savy people could go in small bunches to places like NZ and the Irish republic (et al) and setup nice sustainable communities and live in peace - alas this is not true of the rest of the world, and we'll have to live with them.
In NZ, like so many other places, the gov can - at any time - decide to sling out all the recent arrivals, regardless of their added-value, if voter sentiment has turned xenophobic in some guise.
Alas, I think we'll see that in the UK in some form (we have a bit already...) and to be fair a lot of places like NZ would be better off in the long run using all (semi-fair) means to reduce their head-counts to a minimum.
I would say, if you are going to move then move NOW and get established - don't be the very last one in and hence the very first one out!
From my own point of view I'm sticking with blighty, I might relocate within the UK maybe, where I live (semi urban) has at least some potential in the medium term - law and order being the main concern, see seperate threads for that whole epic!
If you can move within the UK to a small village close (<10 miles) to a town (not big city) then I think you can maximise whats good about the UK while working to offset the downsides, tho granted it's HARD to offset the loss of the gulf stream
Certain parts of bigger cities I think will be ok in the medium term because they will be supported and secured by the government because of their value or status, but who wants to try and make it in the middle of the biggest Uk cities without plenty of system-support? Man thats a big ask.
I think families have value, but they are surely just one factor - if you found a fab oppertunity somewhere you might have to trade never seeing your greater family again for a decent life for you-and-yours. Personally I wouldn't let this one factor dominate.
We all know that doing the best for ourselves is sometimes contrary to whats best for everyone - we can't ALL move to NZ ! - and that's a personal call we all have to make. I'm trying not to let my self-interest go to far - I want to stay and do my bit to make things work.
As discussed in another thread..
Me and my family will be moving to NZ in the next 1-2 years. The planned expansion of Milton Keynes (quadrupling the population to 800,000) is enough reason alone to leave here! Aside from that, I think it would be a terrible choice to stay put in England, for the same reasons other people have given (overpopulation and climate change). If not for climate change, I'd move to Finland in a second, but I think it'll be a bigger problem for Scandinavia than for the UK.
Also I have very little faith in the British people/government's ability to keep order without resorting to draconian measures and violence.
If you want to stay nearby, I would encourage you to look at France or Ireland. Islands like the Isle of Man would probably be worth a look too.
I wish Seychelles could be more self sufficient, that'd be ace
Me and my family will be moving to NZ in the next 1-2 years. The planned expansion of Milton Keynes (quadrupling the population to 800,000) is enough reason alone to leave here! Aside from that, I think it would be a terrible choice to stay put in England, for the same reasons other people have given (overpopulation and climate change). If not for climate change, I'd move to Finland in a second, but I think it'll be a bigger problem for Scandinavia than for the UK.
Also I have very little faith in the British people/government's ability to keep order without resorting to draconian measures and violence.
If you want to stay nearby, I would encourage you to look at France or Ireland. Islands like the Isle of Man would probably be worth a look too.
I wish Seychelles could be more self sufficient, that'd be ace
"Should I stay or should I go?"
Kind of eternal question.
My general take is that moving generally is overvalued, at least if it is a hurry/panic thing. Maybe if you live in Los Angeles or some other crazy place in the US, but not in Europe.
One thing the "bug-out crowd" undervalue is social networks. Social networks change and adapt in a strange way when hardships set in, and I consider them to be the most valuable "asset" of them all. There is so much of creative dynamics which can be released when people start to interact, and that is pretty dificult to get going with a set of completely new acquintances. Much easier to work with people you know a little to start with.
You can expect some people to show up on your doorstep stating "OK, sorry, I dismissed you, but you were right. I want to be part of something, you got any ideas? I'm growing some vegetables on the roof by the way." This could not happen if you were sitting (shuddering) in a tent in the Peak District.
Kind of eternal question.
My general take is that moving generally is overvalued, at least if it is a hurry/panic thing. Maybe if you live in Los Angeles or some other crazy place in the US, but not in Europe.
One thing the "bug-out crowd" undervalue is social networks. Social networks change and adapt in a strange way when hardships set in, and I consider them to be the most valuable "asset" of them all. There is so much of creative dynamics which can be released when people start to interact, and that is pretty dificult to get going with a set of completely new acquintances. Much easier to work with people you know a little to start with.
You can expect some people to show up on your doorstep stating "OK, sorry, I dismissed you, but you were right. I want to be part of something, you got any ideas? I'm growing some vegetables on the roof by the way." This could not happen if you were sitting (shuddering) in a tent in the Peak District.
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peaky
The people here who say things like this is what gives me a good feeling about weathering the PO future.Joe wrote:Erm, yeah. That's what I meantfishertrop wrote:I'm trying not to let my self-interest go to far - I want to stay and do my bit to make things work.
We may be in a minority, but in a society where there's so much selfishness this is all heart warming stuff.I have no plans to leave this country, becuase to me, this is where I was born and grew up. I have a connection with the land, its history, traditions and the ethos of people in this country. I (and I am speaking personally here
) see it as more than simply a place to have a house and live. Certainly, a big part of this is a reflection of my own character - I've lived in the same city for 23 years - whereas others are more taken with travelling and feel more at home with that. If I ever left this country, perhaps for Gulf Stream related reasons, then I'd try and go to a country that I've already visited and whose culture I feel at home with.Well, I wouldn't exactly claim to be particularly altruistic myself. I'm just suffciently well informed to realise that my best chance of survival is to muck in together with my family, friends and community. I think (hope) that growing numbers of people will come round to this view over time as things change and public awareness grows.peaky wrote:The people here who say things like this is what gives me a good feeling about weathering the PO future.
jcw wrote: What do you feel are the pros and cons of Finland?
Finland, Finland, Finland.
The country where I want to be,
Pony trekking or camping,
Or just watching TV.
Finland, Finland, Finland,
It's the country for me.
You're so near to Russia,
So far from Japan.
Quite a long way from Cairo,
Lots of miles from Vietnam.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
The country where I want to be,
Eating breakfast or dinner,
Or snack lunch in the hall.
Finland, Finland, Finland,
Finland has it all.
You're so sadly neglected,
And often ignored,
A poor second to Belgium,
When going abroad.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
The country where I quite want to be,
Your mountains so lofty,
Your treetops so tall.
Finland, Finland, Finland,
Finland has it all.
Finland has it all...
Why?JLefrere wrote: If not for climate change, I'd move to Finland in a second, but I think it'll be a bigger problem for Scandinavia than for the UK.