APPGOPO and Soil Association

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mobbsey
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Re: APPGOPO and Soil Association

Post by mobbsey »

JohnB wrote:Are you doing any visioning in the book, like in The Transition Handbook?
Sorry, I trained in engineering. I do what can be built, not what can be dreamt of (I have concerns about the Transition Handbook, mainly related to the fact that it's so fat on visioning and so thin on the practical).

Why was John Seymour's 'Self Sufficiency' so popular? In my view it's because it's wholly basic, simple and practical. Too much of what I see proposed as "solutions" to peak oil is based upon an awful lot of "wouldn't it be good if..." and not "why not try...". In this sense it's why I felt so annoyed by the Soil Association's position -- in a way it's like organic farming can the the 'solution to food' like hydrogen can be the 'solution to cars' (that is, theoretically it might be true, practically it hasn't got a hope in hell).

I wholly agree with the Transition Handbook on "the great reskilling" -- it's a point I've been making for the last few years, but the more correct question should be "what skills do we need?". It seems to me that so far the practical skills side of 'transition' is a little thin on the ground (with some notable exceptions), perhaps because what skills you need pre-supposes a certain view as to how bad things will get/how much things will change post peak: A wholly practical reskilling is only necessitated if you think it's going to be bad; if you believe that a few veg box schemes and some solar water heating will do the trick you're obviously not be going as far as John Seymour.

By not accepting that a wholly different kind of personal existence is necessitated by peak oil, those who argue for incremental change or changing consumer habits to solve the energy problem are perpetuating the delusion that a fall in the energy available to society is something that we can control -- when clearly, because of the instability it will cause, we cannot. I think a lot of people (esp. some I meet in the Transition Network, but more generally those groups advocating "sustainability") think that we're just going to have a sort of green consumer revolution that will solve the problem. From my rather grounded, basic, practical engineering perspective I don't see it like that; thermodynamics don't allow such as simplistic response to problem as great as "peak everything".

IMHO: The future is all about being adaptably responsive, using acquired skills/resources (individually, or more likely collectively/interdependently) to pressures for change, not planning detailed strategies for how we might do things in the future.
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

Thanks, mobbsey, for the very thorough expansion. It makes a great deal of sense.

Yes John, that Radio 4 food programme was excellent. Well worth a listen again if you missed it. I didn't realize that only 6% of rice was internationally traded.
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Post by snow hope »

Well said mobbsey. I wholeheartedly agree that we will require much more than a "green consumer revolution that will solve the problem."

But it such a paradigm change for the vast majority of us (and I have been aware of Peak Oil and its ramifications for 3 years now) that most of us find it extremely difficult to get our heads around the immensity of change in lifestyle that is going to be required.....

For all but a few, I think a green consumer revolution is as far as we might get, at least until the SHTF and/or "the changes" are very real and in our faces. I am not content with that fact, I just think it is practically the best we can hope for at this stage.

Unless "the changes" all happen much slower than I think, then as has been said many times before, we are well and truely fecked! :cry:
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SunnyJim
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Re: APPGOPO and Soil Association

Post by SunnyJim »

mobbsey wrote:Sorry, got distracted for a couple of days by some paid work!
biffvernon wrote:
mobbsey wrote:moving not to more "local" production but to more "personal" production.
Can you expand on that, please?
I've got a lot on this in the "Less" book which I'm currently trying to finish up for publication, but I'll pre-empt myself:

Much of the talk of "local" food centres on obtaining fruit and veg grown on farms nearer to where you live. However, by and large, those sources are still producing/processing the food using the same intensive means as the food that was grown further away. Organic production can even be slightly more energy dense because the cropping level is slightly lower from the same area of land. Whilst the transport component of our food supply is significant (most studies put it at around a fifth ? a little less than the quarter created by cooking/refrigeration and wastage of food in the home) it's the processing, packaging and cultivation that make up the bulk of the energy use in the food supply.

'Food miles' is an example of the problems created when we focus on only one aspect of the food supply (e.g., http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... icalliving). It's the same type of problem created by the over-emphasis on electricity producing renewable energy systems even though electricity is just less than one-fifth of total energy consumption, and represents only about a third of carbon emissions -- ultimately the strategy doesn't deliver on the goal!

In the sense of the wider peak energy context, we have to focus on where the greatest energy is expended in the whole supply chain -- food security and peak oil/gas are related to the whole supply chain not just the transport. As I noted at the meeting, looking at the problem in terms of ecological energetics, any species that get less energy from its food supply than it expends from producing it will ultimately go extinct. Within the human system there are wide variations in the energy density of food supply (e.g. in Sweden, life-cycle studies of food supply have put the variation as wide as 2 calories/calorie of food in rural areas to 8 calories/calorie in Goteborg). Curiously the most efficient form of food supply -- subsistence farming -- is the one type of farming that is frowned upon by the global economic system (because if you are 'subsistent' you are not a 'consumer') and the development of cash crops/agricultural development generally invariably pushes the subsistent off their land (and in the modern farming context, which Tim Lang confirmed at the meeting when he echoed my point, the most efficient and profitable part of any farm is the farmer's own private vegetable garden, not his main crop!).

The simplest way to take the bulk of this energy out of the food chain is to move cultivation and processing closer to the consumer -- we "personalise" rather than "localise". There are all sorts of ways to do this (e.g. in Teeside http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... 6/cityfood, or in Hackney http://www.btinternet.com/~grow.communities/, and some of the community supported agriculture schemes where the consumers spend their own time working on the farm, andsome of the other initiatives noted in the replies above). Some of the most energy dense foods, such as fresh salad and herbs (they are lightweight, contain not a lot of calories, but use large amounts of packaging and are often flown or produced in greenhouses) which can easily be grown in pots and window boxes -- just about everyone can do that (add sprouting seeds to provide winter greens and you're really eating into the energy bill). Some of the lowest density foods (high calories to production energy ratio foods) are most of the carbohydrate staples ? cereals, potatoes, rice, etc. Producing these at the local scale doesn't make much sense. What is in between is what is in between is what is "negotiable" depending upon local conditions and the individuals own skills/willingness to learn new skills. This is where people's preferences can determine how low they can force their food energy costs.

Even though allotments are over-subscribed across the UK, we're still losing allotments, and private gardens, in the name of more ecologically sound "brownfield" development -- that's just looney! (arguably the food lost from an allotment when it's built on costs less energy to produce than the food production lost from the greenfields which might have otherwise been used). But beyond allotments and formal gardens, there is a lot of space for urban food cultivation on the areas councils currently manage as parks. Instead of the (in some cases, very expenses) plants and shrubs we cover our undeveloped public spaces with we could instead plant perennial food crops (as highlighted by Tim Lang in his talk, the UK produces only about 10% of its fresh fruit).

But "personalisation" isn't just about cultivation. Production/processing is a significant part. The food energy ratio is, in somewhere like urban London, about 10 calories for each calorie of food intake. However, some of the figures I've seen put the ratio at 20 or 30 calories per calorie for 'fast food' or eating out (mainly because many of the manual processing done in the home is predominantly replaced, wastefully, with machine processing to reduce labour costs). Even in the home, it's the growth in the convenience foods that have arisen since the advent of supermarket shopping that are driving energy consumption in the food chain (OK, ready meals are an obvious target, but packaging is a significant proportion of the energy of most supermarket-bought foods). Getting people cooking more food from raw ingredients, and entertaining/cooking for each other (e.g. throwing their own riotous parties instead of partying at gastro-pubs) is a means by which we can eat into the processing side.

The whole "local food" trend is really just a repackaging of the larger consumerist trend of the last 50 years to meet a more ethical demand in the market place. It doesn't change the problems of the underlying system, it just serves to make those problems a little less stark/more obscure. If we really want food security it doesn't come from "localisation", but from fostering a culture of "personalisation"; we grow a small proportion of our total consumption, perhaps work within communities to obtain a little more, but more importantly we prepare what we eat ourselves. This reduces transport, but it reduces the more significant components of cultivation, processing and packaging.

Comments?

You might be interested to know that the "Less is a Four Letter Word" strand of the Energy Beyond Oil Project is complete, hence why we're finalising the book. In September we'll be launching the new theme of "food" -- we're still working on a title to the project, perhaps "Liberation Gastronomy".
I agree totaly with this.

There is however one further, and very important aspect to personalisation of the food supply and that is closing the loop of the human nutrient cycle. Yup. I mean composting your own shit. Until we can get our heads around that one we really are on to a non-starter.

The Humanure handbook is avaliable for free download here.

Not only do we need to grow our own food and do our own processing, we really need to take on board the need to deal responisbly with our own poo. If we continue to take nutrients from the soil, eat them, and then shit in our own drinking water supplies we are asking for trouble. We throw away a perfectly good resource and turn it into a hazardous waste product. Thermophillic composting renders any pathogens harmless. Crapping into the sewers means a large energy outlay trying to clear up our drinking water and polluting our aquifers. This is a product that can add to soil fertility and negate the need for continual addition of soil conditioners.

I see this as the real essence of sustainable food production on a home scale. It solves lots and lots of problems.

The garden grab policy is madness. You can petition against it at Garden Organic. I also notice the Conservatives are against it and have a petition here.
Jim

For every complex problem, there is a simple answer, and it's wrong.

"Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs" (Lao Tzu V.i).
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

I like the line: "the most efficient and profitable part of any farm is the farmer's own private vegetable garden, not his main crop!)."

I know a farmer who grows a great many hectares of potatoes, plus a little patch in his garden "jus for t' wife an m' sen". There can't be much this guy doesn't know about growing spuds.

The concept of energy density of food is interesting. In the grand scheme of things it's calories for the billions that counts but man cannot live by bread alone and he needs a bite of lettuce in his sandwich.
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PowerSwitchJames
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Post by PowerSwitchJames »

The link is now fixed!
www.PowerSwitch.org.uk

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mobbsey
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Re: APPGOPO and Soil Association

Post by mobbsey »

SunnyJim wrote:There is however one further, and very important aspect to personalisation of the food supply and that is closing the loop of the human nutrient cycle. Yup. I mean composting your own shit.
Absolutely! But you must grow food if you compost or you'll have to walk uphill in the garden.

When composting was all the rage in local authorities in the early 90's I did a caculation. An average family composting their waste food/green waste in the average garden, but not growing food, would add about 1cm per decade to the height of the land -- hence why I called the craze, "community landraising". You can see this in most old villages where the church graveyard is usually higher than the surrounding land.
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

>You can see this in most old villages where the church graveyard is usually higher than the surrounding land.

Nice idea but I guess that might be tricky to prove. You'd have to remove noise from the data - like the best place to build the church is on the slightly higher ground, prominent position, nearer to heaven, safer from flooding, erosion of surrounding land unprotected by permanent grass cover, etc. :)
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Andy Hunt
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Re: APPGOPO and Soil Association

Post by Andy Hunt »

SunnyJim wrote:There is however one further, and very important aspect to personalisation of the food supply and that is closing the loop of the human nutrient cycle. Yup. I mean composting your own shit.
I totally agree, and normally I am all for the micro-scale solutions, but I just don't think that composting toilets are going to be able to be retrofitted into every house.

I think looking at the macro-scale could be useful - a lot of water treatment plants already power themselves from methane produced by the process. Maybe they could be re-jigged to produce humanure too, which could be sold to farmers.

I heard about an experiment where processed sewage was being mixed with wood chips and spread on fields as fertiliser - United Utilities was involved up here in the North. Not sure how successful it was, but I do know that these things are being tried.
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SunnyJim
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Re: APPGOPO and Soil Association

Post by SunnyJim »

Andy Hunt wrote:
SunnyJim wrote:There is however one further, and very important aspect to personalisation of the food supply and that is closing the loop of the human nutrient cycle. Yup. I mean composting your own shit.
I totally agree, and normally I am all for the micro-scale solutions, but I just don't think that composting toilets are going to be able to be retrofitted into every house.

I think looking at the macro-scale could be useful - a lot of water treatment plants already power themselves from methane produced by the process. Maybe they could be re-jigged to produce humanure too, which could be sold to farmers.

I heard about an experiment where processed sewage was being mixed with wood chips and spread on fields as fertiliser - United Utilities was involved up here in the North. Not sure how successful it was, but I do know that these things are being tried.
I know it's asking alot of people, but;

By the time it arrives at the sewage station the waste is already tainted. It's fine when its just humanure components, but by the time it's done the sewage trip it's got all sorts in it. Engine oil, washing up liquid, medicines, chemicals and who knows what.

The real benefits are only gained by separating at source.

The humanure book shows a really good way of installing a compost toilet. It only relies on a 5 gallon homebrew bin in the toilet. You need a nearby Humanure Hacienda in which to dump it every couple of weeks though, but you could alway have a few fermenting bins lidded up waiting to go.... Every community could have a big humanure composting bay for residents to empty into. - Remember if mixed with enough dry absorbant material (shredded paper, sawdust, woodash etc) then it will not smell. - Fill up an leave for a year then return the compost to the community.
Jim

For every complex problem, there is a simple answer, and it's wrong.

"Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs" (Lao Tzu V.i).
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Post by snow hope »

Am I the only one that finds this disgusting? I am sorry but I just can't buy into human manure...... I must be too much of a Nancy! :shock:
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SunnyJim
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Post by SunnyJim »

Out of sight isn't out of mind though is it..... at least if you sort it yourself you know where it is. And more importantly where it isn't i.e. seeping out the sewers into your water supply....
Jim

For every complex problem, there is a simple answer, and it's wrong.

"Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs" (Lao Tzu V.i).
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SunnyJim
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Post by SunnyJim »

From the bible of poo composting...
Humanure Handbook wrote:SOILED WATER

The world is divided into two categories of people: those who
shit in their drinking water supplies and those who don?t. We in the
western world are in the former class. We defecate into water, usually
purified drinking water. After polluting the water with our excrements,
we flush the polluted water ?away,? meaning we probably
don?t know where it goes, nor do we care.
Every time we flush a toilet, we launch five or six gallons of
polluted water out into the world.12 That would be like defecating into a
five gallon office water jug and then dumping it out before anyone
could drink any of it. Then doing the same thing when urinating.
Then doing it every day, numerous times. Then multiplying that by
about 290 million people in the United States alone.
Even after the contaminated water is treated in wastewater
treatment plants, it may still be polluted with excessive levels of
nitrates, chlorine, pharmaceutical drugs, industrial chemicals, detergents
and other pollutants. This ?treated? water is discharged directly
into the environment.
It is estimated that by 2010, at least half of the people in the
U.S. will live in coastal cities and towns, further exacerbating water
pollution problems caused by sewage. The degree of beach pollution
becomes a bit more personal when one realizes that current EPA
recreational water cleanliness standards still allow 19 illnesses per
1,000 saltwater swimmers, and 8 per 1,000 freshwater swimmers.13
Some of the diseases associated with swimming in wastewater-contaminated
recreational waters include typhoid fever, salmonellosis,
shigellosis, hepatitis, gastroenteritis, pneumonia, and skin infections.
17
If you don?t want to get sick from the water you swim in, don?t
submerge your head. Otherwise, you may end up like the swimmers
in Santa Monica Bay. People who swam in the ocean there within 400
yards (four football fields) of a storm sewer drain had a 66% greater
chance of developing a ?significant respiratory disease? within the
following 9 to 14 days after swimming.18
This should come as no surprise when one takes into consideration
the emergence of antibiotic-resistant bacteria. The use of
antibiotics is so widespread that many people are now breeding
antibiotic resistant bacteria in their intestinal systems. These bacteria
are excreted into toilets and make their way to wastewater treatment
plants where the antibiotic resistance can be transferred to other bacteria.
Wastewater plants can then become breeding grounds for resistant
bacteria, which are discharged into the environment through
effluent drains. Why not just chlorinate the water before discharging
it? It usually is chlorinated beforehand, but research has shown that
chlorine seems to increase bacterial resistance to some antibiotics.19
Not worried about antibiotic-resistant bacteria in your swimming
area? Here?s something else to chew on: 50 to 90% of the pharmaceutical
drugs people ingest can be excreted down the toilet and
out into the waterways in their original or biologically active forms.
Furthermore, drugs that have been partially degraded before excre
-tion can be converted to their original active form by environmental
chemical reactions. Pharmaceutical drugs such as chemotherapy
drugs, antibiotics, antiseptics, beta-blocker heart drugs, hormones,
analgesics, cholesterol-lowering drugs and drugs for regulating blood
lipids have turned up in such places as tap water, groundwater
beneath sewage treatment plants, lake water, rivers and in drinking
water aquifers. Think about that the next time you fill your glass with
water.20
Jim

For every complex problem, there is a simple answer, and it's wrong.

"Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs" (Lao Tzu V.i).
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JohnB
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Post by JohnB »

snow hope wrote:Am I the only one that finds this disgusting? I am sorry but I just can't buy into human manure...... I must be too much of a Nancy! :shock:
Have you ever been away in a motorhome or caravan? Emptying the loo is great fun. Watching a big container of greeny brownish gunge pouring down a drain. It's great :D. It might not be a sustainable way of disposing of it, but it teaches you to start taking responsibility for your outputs. I'll take a photo next time I empty mine if you like :lol:.
John

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goslow
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Post by goslow »

wow i'm inspired! but don't tell the neighbours...
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