The car that runs on water

PowerSwitchJames · Post by **PowerSwitchJames** » 04 Oct 2005, 08:39

Every few years someone cranks out a story about a car being able to run on water and then people start thinking there is nothing to worry about as we'll be able to power our cars from our taps...

The breakthrough is the electro hydrogen generator which extracts hydrogen from water by spinning it at high speed.

The hydrogen is then mixed with the petrol supply to create an environmentally friendly 'super fuel' which 'stretches' the unleaded fuel, enabling the car to go further on less. The generator is spun using the engine's recycled exhaust gases.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money-save ... _page_id=5

skeptik · Post by **skeptik** » 04 Oct 2005, 10:03

The breakthrough is the electro hydrogen generator which extracts hydrogen from water by spinning it at high speed.

Tee hee... Hydrogen dissociated from water by centrifuge. Funny nobody noticed that effect before.

Bootstrapper · Post by **Bootstrapper** » 05 Oct 2005, 23:02

My father (an engineer) told me he once saw an engine demonstrated that was 'fuelled' by water. It was a highly-modified diesel with a compression ratio in the order of 80:1 or more. The pressure and heat in the combustion chamber was so great that some of the distilled water used as 'fuel' was 'cracked' into it's components (Hydrogen and Oxygen), which then combusted and heated the remaining air/water vapour and caused it to expand and drive the piston.

The drawback with this engine was that it had to be massively constructed and was therefore unsuitable for anything except marine or stationary power use. The water 'fuel' was injected at huge pressures (hundreds of atms) and eroded the injector to uselessness in a very short time. Sealing the piston and valves against such huge pressures was a major technical undertaking. The engine would have been incredibly expensive (read uneconomic) to manufacture due to the high-precision machining required.

Dad's conclusion: It worked but had an unacceptably short duty-cycle, was uneconomical to manufacture, impossible to repair except at the place it was built, and was unsuitable for most common applications.

Post by **mikepepler** » 06 Oct 2005, 07:48

Bootstrapper wrote:My father (an engineer) told me he once saw an engine demonstrated that was 'fuelled' by water. It was a highly-modified diesel with a compression ratio in the order of 80:1 or more. The pressure and heat in the combustion chamber was so great that some of the distilled water used as 'fuel' was 'cracked' into it's components (Hydrogen and Oxygen), which then combusted and heated the remaining air/water vapour and caused it to expand and drive the piston.

Sorry to be a wet blanket on this one, but don't these ideas break the laws of thermodynamics? Breaking water into H and O takes energy, and this is the energy you get back when you burn them again. The two amounts are equal, but there will be losses due to efficiency being below 100%. If such an engine worked it would be a perpetual motion machine - it's exhaust would be water, so it could reuse it as fuel. Obviously not going to work....

Now I have heard of injecting small amounts of water vapour into petrol engines to improve efficiency, something to do with it making the air cooler and denser, and there being more in the cylinders to expand after combustion. Not sure on the details, but it's certainly not energy for free. Apparently you can test it out by driving your car on a cold foggy day, compared to a hot sunny day.

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 06 Oct 2005, 09:14

Bootstrapper wrote: The water 'fuel' was injected at huge pressures (hundreds of atms)

I would bet my life savings against a cup of tea that more energy was consumed pressurising the water than the engine generated.

MacG · Post by **MacG** » 06 Oct 2005, 09:31

RalphW wrote:
Bootstrapper wrote: The water 'fuel' was injected at huge pressures (hundreds of atms)
I would bet my life savings against a cup of tea that more energy was consumed pressurising the water than the engine generated.

I'm in! Pressurising the water dont seem like the main thing, it's more about pressurising the air in the cylinder...

So, how do we arrange with the money? Should I PM my account number for a simple transfer? Or should I expect a cup of tea in your home? (Betting has never been my strength)

johnhemming · Post by **johnhemming** » 06 Oct 2005, 18:48

Coming back to the original issue, however.

I have rummaged this out a bit and put a bit on my blog about it
johnhemming.blogspot.com

it does appear that the government have fallen for the "free energy" "perpetual motion engine" scam. Rumours are they are giving away millions of our money to the scamsters.

I shall, of course, be chasing up this issue. I expect to have some fun with it.

Post by **mikepepler** » 06 Oct 2005, 19:02

RalphW wrote:
Bootstrapper wrote: The water 'fuel' was injected at huge pressures (hundreds of atms)
I would bet my life savings against a cup of tea that more energy was consumed pressurising the water than the engine generated.

Guys - this "engine" can not have generated power, it's thermodynamically impossible - it would be the mythical "free lunch"

Another point though - injectors running at hundreds of atm are not a big deal. Common-rail diesel engines use 1600 bar (1 bar is approx 1 atm), and the VW TDi PD engine in my humble Polo uses 2050 bar. The PD engine uses a pump for each injector driver by the cam, which is how it achieves such high pressures.

Post by **clv101** » 06 Oct 2005, 19:16

See this article:
http://www.newsroom.uktradeinvest.gov.u ... easeID=635

It really looks as if public money might have gone into this scheme... if so someone's been had and will end up looking rather foolish!

MacG · Post by **MacG** » 06 Oct 2005, 20:44

clv101 wrote:See this article:
http://www.newsroom.uktradeinvest.gov.u ... easeID=635

It really looks as if public money might have gone into this scheme... if so someone's been had and will end up looking rather foolish!

Oh my... Well, we can expect to see quite a lot more of that kind in the immediate future.

skeptik · Post by **skeptik** » 06 Oct 2005, 20:50

clv101 wrote:See this article:
http://www.newsroom.uktradeinvest.gov.u ... easeID=635

It really looks as if public money might have gone into this scheme... if so someone's been had and will end up looking rather foolish!

Lol... its happened before. The company's not run by an American bloke called DeLorean by any chance?

Post by **mikepepler** » 06 Oct 2005, 20:58

clv101 wrote:See this article:
http://www.newsroom.uktradeinvest.gov.u ... easeID=635

It really looks as if public money might have gone into this scheme... if so someone's been had and will end up looking rather foolish!

This is unbelievable. Check out what they say on that link:

Although OM Energy developed their patent and core technology in Russia, the company?s management felt they needed a strategically viable location to globally protect and expand their intellectual property and business. GEP advised OM Energy on the benefits of establishing in the UK, and the company has cited GEP?s strategic counsel and networking support as the key catalysts to identifying funding sources and migrating to the UK.

So, they came up with the scam in Russia, and then figured out that only a UK government run organisation was dumb enough to fund them. I bet they're laughing all the way to the bank.

More comment on it here:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/09 ... d_wat.html

These things need to be exposed for what they are - distractions from the real issues of peak oil and climate change.

Bootstrapper · Post by **Bootstrapper** » 06 Oct 2005, 22:57

I wish I'd asked Dad for more details when he told me about this. At the time, I wasn't that interested in the subject. Unfortunately, I can't ask him now - he died ten years ago. I don't know the circumstances under which he witnessed the demonstration of this engine, so it's probable he was being duped. I mentioned it because this has been my exposure to the concept of a 'water-fuelled' engine.

I think everyone's correct in saying this device appears to violate the second law of Thermodynamics. Most of the fundamental discoveries and breakthroughs in science have occurred independently, in more than one place. If 'zero-point' energy (and a way to tap it) was discovered, it couldn't be suppressed. As fast as the powers-that-be bought up one patent, someone else would make the same discovery somewhere else and the information would get out. As far as I know, no-one has ever convincingly demonstrated a working device or published plans from which a working device could be fabricated.

It's in Govcorp's interest to maintain a centralised energy generation and distribution system for our society. Energy independence generated (pardon the pun) by small systems not connected to the grid, lead to social and political independence and to the reduction and eventual elimination of Govcorp's power. If inventors were smart enough to make a fundamental energy breakthrough, you'd think they'd be clever enough to realise they'll never be allowed to make their fortunes by marketing a product that would harm their lords and masters.

johnhemming · Post by **johnhemming** » 07 Oct 2005, 04:25

DeLorean produced something that works (not commercially, but physically). The Water Powered engine is a total scam.

I am contacting journalists about this.

revdode · Post by **revdode** » 07 Oct 2005, 07:22

I can't remember where I first read about this engine but I do remember the article mentioned it used petrol and hydrogen. More an efficiency improved petrol engine rather than a water driven engine. After some searches I couldn't find any details on the hydrogen seperation system and I still consider that it is likely to be Bogus. The petrol does mean they can get around the obvious problem of someone calling perpetual motion shenanigans. Incidentally it would also make it far easier to produce a convincing demonstration.

I can't find the original reference but the following article mentions it.

http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage3485.html

The car that runs on water

The car that runs on water

Re: The car that runs on water