Back to black: return to coal power

RogerCO · Post by **RogerCO** » 11 Mar 2008, 10:03

21st_century_caveman wrote:Some people also like to look at StarTrek as a model for future human development, well you didn't see the crew of the Enterprise queuing up at the door of the captains ready room asking for their paychecks during a Romulan attack did you? Mind you, that doesn't really say much because you never saw them queuing for the toilets either.

It was either the very early John Carpenter film Dark Star or possibly repeated in the first Alien which had the same screenwriter (Dan O'Bannon) there was a wonderful scene of a couple of low grade techs on the spaceship bitching about their pay, bonus and working conditions...

Aurora · Post by **Aurora** » 12 Mar 2008, 06:38

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/jam ... _coal.html

The Guardian - 11/03/08

Everyone should be concerned that the UK's energy department wants new coal plants. Gordon Brown must intervene urgently to halt these plans. He must ensure new coal plants are not built on his watch without their carbon captured from the outset.

Article continues ...

Kieran · Post by **Kieran** » 12 Mar 2008, 14:28

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/b ... 533538.ece
Back to the coalface - Times Online

It was in Alien where Brett and Parker bitch about their pay and bonuses.

Post by **adam2** » 12 Mar 2008, 15:38

Ideally of couse we should be reducing coal burning, not increasing it, due to the substantial carbon dioxide emissions.

Regretably it appears unlikely that wind/solar/nuclear/ will be implemented in time to avoid an energy crunch. It therefore appears inevitable that coal burning will increase.

It might be preferable to encourage the use of smokeless fuel (derived from coal) for domestic heating, instead of burning coal in power stations and then using electric heating.

The efficiency of a modern coal burning power plant is about 35%, due to transmission losses this reduces to about 32% at the point of use.

The efficiency of a coal burning domestic stove, boiler or room heater is typically from 40% to 70%.
If coal is to be burned at all, it might make better sense to use use it for heating rather than electric power generation.

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 12 Mar 2008, 15:47

Yes with the added advantage that it doesn't suddenly disappear from your coal-hole all in one go, as electricity will tend to.

fifthcolumn · Post by **fifthcolumn** » 12 Mar 2008, 15:56

adam2 wrote: The efficiency of a coal burning domestic stove, boiler or room heater is typically from 40% to 70%.
If coal is to be burned at all, it might make better sense to use use it for heating rather than electric power generation.

Yeah because this is the prime need: heating.
What with natural gas about to be difficult to get our hands on we will either have to burn some of our dwindling north sea oil, use electricity or else use the coal directly as you have said.

I'm pessimistic about GW. I don't think we can really do anything about it.
I think peak oil is the only one we can solve. So we better start praying that we start to get global cooling for fifty years instead.

echurchill - E4B · Post by **echurchill - E4B** » 31 Mar 2008, 11:34

I agree too - especially about the coal!

Talk of renewable energy and nuclear power has overshaddowed the fact that new coal plants have been opened. With a number of the big 6 suppliers investing in this (whilst publically investing in wind farms, R&D or CHP) more are set to open. Especially with the developments in technology meaning the UK can access remaining coal by drilling instead of mining. Looks like a dark future lies ahead!

Take a look at this article:

http://ezinearticles.com/?Black-to-Basics&id=886531

snow hope · Post by **snow hope** » 31 Mar 2008, 21:54

Interesting article Emma!

So, if I can be so bold as to summerise what you are saying,
1. Coal powered power stations are being built / are planned to be built through to 2020 by at least 4 of the big 6 power companies in the UK.
2. This is being more or less covered up by Government / commercial greenwash.
3. Open cast mines are opening up again (10 out of 12 applications for same approved in 2006) with one in Wales being 1000 acres to be excavated to 600ft!! What a hole!
4. This will send the CO2 figures / targets through the roof.

So, I can only draw one conclusion from this. The Government think they have no other option to keep the lights on. Climate change (due to increased CO2) is the lesser of 2 evils and the CO2 reduction targets will have to be abandoned in terms of electricity generation.

You have to ask why the hell is the Government still selling us the whole climate change agenda when they know they are going to bust it? Or maybe CO2 isn't as big a deal as we have all been told?

Totally_Baffled · Post by **Totally_Baffled** » 31 Mar 2008, 22:04

So, I can only draw one conclusion from this. The Government think they have no other option to keep the lights on. Climate change (due to increased CO2) is the lesser of 2 evils and the CO2 reduction targets will have to be abandoned in terms of electricity generation.

One only has to look at the plan for airport expansion to see that the UK govenrment doesn't give a stuff about CO2 emissions let alone electricity generation and road transport!

I genuinely have no clue where this goverment is coming from on anything to be honest! The left hand doesnt know what right hand is doing ffs!

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 31 Mar 2008, 22:04

Meanwhile, over in Bangkok, the follow-up to Bali has just got underway.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?N ... Cr1=change

snow hope · Post by **snow hope** » 01 Apr 2008, 08:51

Totally_Baffled wrote: One only has to look at the plan for airport expansion to see that the UK govenrment doesn't give a stuff about CO2 emissions let alone electricity generation and road transport!

I genuinely have no clue where this goverment is coming from on anything to be honest! The left hand doesnt know what right hand is doing ffs!

Yes, I quite agree! Strategically (and in many other ways), this Labour Govt. has been a very big disappointment.

Post by **adam2** » 01 Apr 2008, 09:16

A letter in todays TIMES suggested that the best way to discourage air travel is to encourage BA and the BAA to open new terminals!

The recent and ongoing fiasco at Heathrow would not encourage me to fly!

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 02 Apr 2008, 05:19

adam2 wrote:..............It might be preferable to encourage the use of smokeless fuel (derived from coal) for domestic heating, instead of burning coal in power stations and then using electric heating.

The efficiency of a modern coal burning power plant is about 35%, due to transmission losses this reduces to about 32% at the point of use.

The efficiency of a coal burning domestic stove, boiler or room heater is typically from 40% to 70%.
If coal is to be burned at all, it might make better sense to use use it for heating rather than electric power generation.

If the power stations are built close to the areas that they are to power they could be built as Combined Heat & Power stations with the waste heat being used to provide hot water for local housing and industry. Wouldn't need to burn coal at home then.

If the new eco towns really were eco towns ala BedZed we wouldn't need to heat them anyway. Just a bit of hot water during the winter and when their solar HW panels weren't heating.

If we had a government with an iota of sense these things might be done. Trouble is, that's three Big If's too many. We need to kick Grasping Gordon out as soon as possible and in the manner of Mugabe: by a landslide.