Well I enjoy a pint and I don't want to pay ?4 for it. I've never trashed a city centre and don't see why I should be taxed more just because other folk do trash city centres. If anybody found drunk and disorderly on a street were given a lengthy community service order that would be just fine by me. Our police and legal system seem to take a very lenient view of antisocial behaviour and then folk condemn the demon drink rather than the excessive drinkers.
And it would be good to get such social ills sorted before the effects of PeakOil really bite.
And The Nanny State Is Really Taking The P!ss
Moderator: Peak Moderation
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biffvernon
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biffvernon
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I think that its due to a number of of material price rises together-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007 ... odanddrink
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007 ... odanddrink
I guess that they're talking about cans of beer given the mention of aluminium, as they can't have to make too many of those reusable kegs that you see in pubs.Major British brewers saw their profits fall by 78% between 2004 and 2006. The BBPA says the industry is being further hampered by the Treasury which claims 33p out of the cost of every pint.
Last week a source at S&N warned that the price increases would be "way above the rate of inflation" as it tries to recoup losses from higher cereal, crude oil and aluminium prices, according to pub trade paper the Morning Advertiser.
Oh good, someone with real experience of the sharp end.leroy wrote: The suggestion that crack cocaine should be legalised, I imagine, can only be made by those who don't have any first hand experience of crack junkies. I've been mugged by a couple, and threatened with a dirty needle, and the idea of someone who is that messed up by a drug being able to hold down a job and be a respectable member of the community if they could only buy their rocks at the newsagent is a joke. I'm with clv101 on the draconian laws on this one.
First question is, is this worse than being threatened by blokes pissed out of their heads? I've never experienced the dirty needle thing, but drunk men are a threat every night somewhere to someone, and I've certainly experienced it.
Second question is, are they muggers because of the impact of the drug, or because it's illegal and they have to raise the cash somehow and go down whatever path is required to get it?
What I can never understand from the prohibitionists is why we don't ban alcohol. It has far more direct negative impact on my life than any other drug, and I suspect (without evidence) that it has the largest effect on society as a whole of any intoxicant.
These are good questions, and if I'm honest I have been spouting things off the top of my head in previous posts, and have come to no certain conclusions on any of this. Criminal justice and penal reform are two of the most complex and intractable problems that I have encountered. Booze affects many very different people in negative ways, but as others have said, is very pleasant past time and and a great social lubricator for many, many others. Mill's primary influence and the other great Utilitarian thinker, Jeremy Bentham, had his famous maxim 'the greatest happiness of the greatest number' which might be applied here . If more pleasure is experienced overall by the populace through alcohol than harm is caused, then it should be available to purchase. If one applies the same criteria to crack or heroin one might reach different conclusions - or may not given the subjective notions of pleasure and harm, which are a major flaw in Bentham's idea. This is a pretty simplistic argument though, with many factors that need consideration including the chances of addiction with any given substance, health risks, the cultural context of a drug and any cultural interpretation by consumers - eg. many heavy drinkers are not violent or abusive, particularly on the Continent.
The most harmful drugs that I have encountered (this is not even an attempt at a scientific analysis) are probably alcohol and skunk, which also enable lots of people to really improve the quality of their lives. These may be very damaging, though, due to there wide availability and we could find that legalising coke or heroin made it much more of a problem. On the other hand there is merit in the contention that marginalisation of users and through prohibition can be seen as a gift to the criminal world and a barrier to users being productive citizens.
One thing I am sure of is that prisons need sorting out. Deterrence, incapacitiation, retribution, reform and even expiation are all elements poured into the prison system and they need to be worked out well as they are not all mutually complementary. Successive governments' cost-cutting has done us no long term favours. Cells are very warm, generally replete with telly, playstation and hifi, and inmates get as much food as they want and drugs if they can afford them. The more content and docile prisoners are, the less staff are required to look after them which makes great economic sense. It also fits in nicely with human rights issues, but is ultimately unproductive. Not saying that I would want to live there, but I can see that it would be easy to become institutionalised and plenty of people reoffend in order to get back inside, and oftentimes with a plug of heroin to give to some inside distributor. I also reckon that if I was a people trafficker from piss-poor rural Eastern Europe, I wouldn't find much deterrence in three meals a day and the rest of it.
In response to your question about aggressive drunks being as bad as crack addicts, Tess, I am not sure what I think. There are certainly more idiots staggering around in town and one has a much greater chance of being hassled by them due to there numbers. The problem with down-and-out heroin and crack addicts is that the same individuals will repeat the routine of going out to get money every time that they need a fix, which of course is often, and that they need a fair amount of cash quickly and will employ increasingly desperate measures, like the needle thing. I used to live in Brighton and there were muggers who used this method constantly and to great effect. If you are approached by a pissed up idiot you will likely be able to disengage yourself from the situation unharmed. A desperate, erratic smackhead who has found a needle can approach you and get close, and can claim to be having a conversation with you or begging if caught on CCTV by the police. The prospect of getting HIV or whatever got me reaching for my wallet in no time at all. I reckon that those guys made a lot of money doing that.
The most harmful drugs that I have encountered (this is not even an attempt at a scientific analysis) are probably alcohol and skunk, which also enable lots of people to really improve the quality of their lives. These may be very damaging, though, due to there wide availability and we could find that legalising coke or heroin made it much more of a problem. On the other hand there is merit in the contention that marginalisation of users and through prohibition can be seen as a gift to the criminal world and a barrier to users being productive citizens.
One thing I am sure of is that prisons need sorting out. Deterrence, incapacitiation, retribution, reform and even expiation are all elements poured into the prison system and they need to be worked out well as they are not all mutually complementary. Successive governments' cost-cutting has done us no long term favours. Cells are very warm, generally replete with telly, playstation and hifi, and inmates get as much food as they want and drugs if they can afford them. The more content and docile prisoners are, the less staff are required to look after them which makes great economic sense. It also fits in nicely with human rights issues, but is ultimately unproductive. Not saying that I would want to live there, but I can see that it would be easy to become institutionalised and plenty of people reoffend in order to get back inside, and oftentimes with a plug of heroin to give to some inside distributor. I also reckon that if I was a people trafficker from piss-poor rural Eastern Europe, I wouldn't find much deterrence in three meals a day and the rest of it.
In response to your question about aggressive drunks being as bad as crack addicts, Tess, I am not sure what I think. There are certainly more idiots staggering around in town and one has a much greater chance of being hassled by them due to there numbers. The problem with down-and-out heroin and crack addicts is that the same individuals will repeat the routine of going out to get money every time that they need a fix, which of course is often, and that they need a fair amount of cash quickly and will employ increasingly desperate measures, like the needle thing. I used to live in Brighton and there were muggers who used this method constantly and to great effect. If you are approached by a pissed up idiot you will likely be able to disengage yourself from the situation unharmed. A desperate, erratic smackhead who has found a needle can approach you and get close, and can claim to be having a conversation with you or begging if caught on CCTV by the police. The prospect of getting HIV or whatever got me reaching for my wallet in no time at all. I reckon that those guys made a lot of money doing that.
I don't think this could be done - see above mention of Al Capone and the Prohibition experiment in the US. The idea of a drinking license that can be revoked sounds really interesting though. You would have to go around checking that people didn't get others to buy for them, and implement a scale of penalties like with drink driving. Really good idea though.What I can never understand from the prohibitionists is why we don't ban alcohol. It has far more direct negative impact on my life than any other drug, and I suspect (without evidence) that it has the largest effect on society as a whole of any intoxicant.
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chubbygristle
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it would be nice of the government to actually divert some of the money it wastes on condescending, lowest common denominator advertising "drinking makes you do stupid things" and other such obvious messages, into doing something about the root cause of the binge drinking problems.
we have a society that knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing - we have a public who are mainly interested in the lowest prices for everything from car insurance to food shopping in our modern moneysupermarket / gocompare society which has given us an amazing competition culture and a "race to the bottom" to get rid of meaningful / skillful employment and replace it with mind numbing spirit crushing monotony with the lowest possible pay (due to the competition) outsourcing what we can to foreign lands. the result of this is over worked, under paid people who are fed unrealistic and unfulfillable aspirations through the TV leading to feelings of impotence and alienation.
the government has failed in regulating big business to prevent this and people have failed to let their common sense prevent this from happening.
go into any town centre and look at the state of the people who are completely and totally drunk beyond belief - shouting and bawling and throwing up kebabs on street corners. the vast majority of these people have exactly this kind of hum drumm existence which drives them towards wanting to going out and getting completely hammered and forget about the day of under-paid drudgery they are forced into day after day.
rather than this endless diatribe of 'binge drinking' and other tabloid friendly drivel that keeps getting spewed into the tabloid media the real culprits of this mess should be held accountable but no, we are simply told to blame the 'victims'. it's not beyond a lot of people to get out of these habits and yes people need to be responsible for their own actions but the government should stop squandering my tax money on adverts telling people not to drink so much and concentrate on removing the driving factor behind this behavior.
I find it incredibly irksome that my money is spent on 'no if's - no buts' - benefit fraud will be stamped out adverts whilst the we teeter on the edge of a global financial breakdown caused - not by benefit cheats but the corporate greed and corrupt systems that the government have gone out of their way to nurture and protect for years....
The government is too busy spending money warning us of that bloody 'knock off Nigel' selling pirate DVD's than doing something to stop giant Tesco knocking off local and meaningful employment thus aiding the resulting breakdown of local prosperity leading to the inevitable drinking and drug culture.
and yes. I like a pint. I don't see why I should be paying ?3.00 a pint because it's a deterrent for people who would 'binge drink' (even though under this new thinking I too am now a binge drinker for going out and having 5 or more pints of ale throughout the course of an evening on a weekend- however I do then fail to fulfill my role by going home and not battering the missus or smashing up parts of town on my way there!)
I agree totally that people need to be given some kind of responsibility back but they need some protection from the corporate take-over of this country to allow people to rebuild meaningful jobs and healthy local economies... with this will come self respect and a feeling of worth that can only result in being more concerned about health, surroundings and other people.
what we are reaping now is what we (in general) have sown by shopping at tesco and participating in the great race to the bottom competition orgy... every little helps eh! I am sure a lot of the things I have done in the past have somehow contributed too (although you have to drag me kicking and screaming into the supermarket!), I don't for one minute think I am blame free!
apologies for the outburst. hope it made some sense.
we have a society that knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing - we have a public who are mainly interested in the lowest prices for everything from car insurance to food shopping in our modern moneysupermarket / gocompare society which has given us an amazing competition culture and a "race to the bottom" to get rid of meaningful / skillful employment and replace it with mind numbing spirit crushing monotony with the lowest possible pay (due to the competition) outsourcing what we can to foreign lands. the result of this is over worked, under paid people who are fed unrealistic and unfulfillable aspirations through the TV leading to feelings of impotence and alienation.
the government has failed in regulating big business to prevent this and people have failed to let their common sense prevent this from happening.
go into any town centre and look at the state of the people who are completely and totally drunk beyond belief - shouting and bawling and throwing up kebabs on street corners. the vast majority of these people have exactly this kind of hum drumm existence which drives them towards wanting to going out and getting completely hammered and forget about the day of under-paid drudgery they are forced into day after day.
rather than this endless diatribe of 'binge drinking' and other tabloid friendly drivel that keeps getting spewed into the tabloid media the real culprits of this mess should be held accountable but no, we are simply told to blame the 'victims'. it's not beyond a lot of people to get out of these habits and yes people need to be responsible for their own actions but the government should stop squandering my tax money on adverts telling people not to drink so much and concentrate on removing the driving factor behind this behavior.
I find it incredibly irksome that my money is spent on 'no if's - no buts' - benefit fraud will be stamped out adverts whilst the we teeter on the edge of a global financial breakdown caused - not by benefit cheats but the corporate greed and corrupt systems that the government have gone out of their way to nurture and protect for years....
The government is too busy spending money warning us of that bloody 'knock off Nigel' selling pirate DVD's than doing something to stop giant Tesco knocking off local and meaningful employment thus aiding the resulting breakdown of local prosperity leading to the inevitable drinking and drug culture.
and yes. I like a pint. I don't see why I should be paying ?3.00 a pint because it's a deterrent for people who would 'binge drink' (even though under this new thinking I too am now a binge drinker for going out and having 5 or more pints of ale throughout the course of an evening on a weekend- however I do then fail to fulfill my role by going home and not battering the missus or smashing up parts of town on my way there!)
I agree totally that people need to be given some kind of responsibility back but they need some protection from the corporate take-over of this country to allow people to rebuild meaningful jobs and healthy local economies... with this will come self respect and a feeling of worth that can only result in being more concerned about health, surroundings and other people.
what we are reaping now is what we (in general) have sown by shopping at tesco and participating in the great race to the bottom competition orgy... every little helps eh! I am sure a lot of the things I have done in the past have somehow contributed too (although you have to drag me kicking and screaming into the supermarket!), I don't for one minute think I am blame free!
apologies for the outburst. hope it made some sense.
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21st_century_caveman
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- Location: Still on this feckin island
Great rant chubby, underlined nicely something i just saw on the news about children becoming increasingly materialistic and the commercialisation of childhood.
Back on topic, i feel this debate could benefit from a Bill Hicks quote.
Back on topic, i feel this debate could benefit from a Bill Hicks quote.
I also came across another good one by another great American.Why is marijuana against the law? It grows naturally upon our planet. Doesn't the idea of making nature against the law seem to you a bit... unnatural?
Bill Hicks
There is yet another quote from Bill about drugs which is probably also appropriate for the religion debate.Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded.
Abraham Lincoln
How about a positive LSD story, that would be newsworthy. Don't you think? Anybody think that? Just once, to hear a positive LSD story. "Today, a young man on acid, realised that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration. That we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves... here's Tom with the weather."
Bill Hicks
Humans always do the most intelligent thing after every stupid alternative has failed. - R. Buckminster Fuller
If you stare too long into the abyss, the abyss will stare back into you. - Friedrich Nietzche
If you stare too long into the abyss, the abyss will stare back into you. - Friedrich Nietzche
Great thread, great posts!
I think that the small things we can all do, like growing our own veg or whatever, can go a long way to restoring meaning to a meaningless existence.
I find there is a deep joy in even the smallest things like that, and a great meaning in providing for myself in some way that respects the planet a bit too, no matter how small the thing.
I think that the small things we can all do, like growing our own veg or whatever, can go a long way to restoring meaning to a meaningless existence.
I find there is a deep joy in even the smallest things like that, and a great meaning in providing for myself in some way that respects the planet a bit too, no matter how small the thing.
Andy Hunt
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
Eternal Sunshine wrote: I wouldn't want to worry you with the truth.
I think it's important to remember that this is hardly a new phenomenon:
The problems associated with over-drinking are probably fairly intractable and raising (or lowering) taxes, or licenses, or most of the other 'solutions' offered up won't - I think - do a great deal. People like to get pissed and/or high and I don't think much can be done about that. Or at least, 'solutions' would have to be so draconian that the cure could very well be worse than the symptoms. I really don't think people over-drink out of ignorance (my father was a doctor who died from a combination of smoking- and drinking-related illnesses - not a particularly rare event) so prevention would have to be entirely coercive. Instead of - as chubbygristle said - tabloid crusades against whatever particular moral panic has grabbed the headlines for the day, some type of intelligent management of getting pissed/high seems to be a far more productive and intelligent approach. And to those who think holding down a job and Herculean drug-taking are mutually exclusive, a trip to pretty much any part of the media industry should set you straight on that one.
The problems associated with over-drinking are probably fairly intractable and raising (or lowering) taxes, or licenses, or most of the other 'solutions' offered up won't - I think - do a great deal. People like to get pissed and/or high and I don't think much can be done about that. Or at least, 'solutions' would have to be so draconian that the cure could very well be worse than the symptoms. I really don't think people over-drink out of ignorance (my father was a doctor who died from a combination of smoking- and drinking-related illnesses - not a particularly rare event) so prevention would have to be entirely coercive. Instead of - as chubbygristle said - tabloid crusades against whatever particular moral panic has grabbed the headlines for the day, some type of intelligent management of getting pissed/high seems to be a far more productive and intelligent approach. And to those who think holding down a job and Herculean drug-taking are mutually exclusive, a trip to pretty much any part of the media industry should set you straight on that one.
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lancasterlad
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I remember reading Jeremy Paxman's 'The English' which gives historical evidence of our history of over drinking and what our European neighours have thought of our antics over the years.I think it's important to remember that this is hardly a new phenomenon
Don't get me wrong, I like a drink but I have never been so drunk I don't know what I'm doing. Restraint is a word some people don't understand.
Lancaster Lad
Who turned the lights off?
Who turned the lights off?
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biffvernon
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chubbygristle
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I was just talking to someone about things like this today and it reminded me of reading the Unabomber manifesto... and also Lewis Mumford?s - Myth of The Machine.
The Unabomber bit (can be found on Google easily) talks about how it's not particularly hard to hold down a job and put food on the table these days for most people in societies like ours. Mumford also talks about the use of technology / servants to make things easier and take the skill out of jobs or remove the need for certain tasks completely which made for some very bored and meaningless existences of a lot of the ruling classes who indeed turned to drink and drugs and other 'surrogate activities'. I guess that this has worked its way down to the masses as suggested by the U.M. Most of us don't live in a challenging environment and can coast along quite easily with minimal effort and get by. The drinking and drugs part is escapism from this and obesity is also another side effect.
I guess this also ties into the destruction of meaningful jobs now too... I guess it's much more satisfying to be able to run your own local shop and work in a nice environment than it is to have to work in some supermarket due to local shops being run out of business.
My sister works in ASDA and has to put up with all manner of rubbish like disiplineries for being off work sick (I suggested she just go in and vomit on the conveyer belt) in mock US court style hearings where you can take 'a witness' (I suggested taking a keep-left bollard with a wig on it) - idiotic, 'tin pot Hitler', condescending, lower management, sociopaths that have decided to victimise her for making them look like idiots on their last 'oh you had some time off ill' incident (where she pointed out that they had contravened health and safety law in demanding her return to work less than three days after an illness that required such delay - yes they hate people that are actually aware of things like this).
It's no surprise that people in these situations develop mental health issues / depression / drinking habits etc (apart from mild depression she hasn't developed the rest yet
)
It hacks me off that the same people who shop there (thus support these places) are the same people that moan about that state of society in general and simply cannot see that such behaviour is at least partially attributable to their actions. I've worked in factories and warehouses in the past and have seen similar kinds of things going on and what it does to people.
To bring it back to peak oil... it cannot be long now until the wheels some off the tescopoly and relocalisation of a lot of things start to make financial sense again (as opposed to just plain common sense as they have always been). When people are more engaged in such activities as making useful things and growing things again, we'll probably see an end to the over drinking and obesity etc and things will get back to normal again.
In the mean time it's just mightily irksome to have to listen to all the government and tabloid drivel about these problems, diverting attention from the root causes back onto the symptoms... it's easier to send the police out to issue ASBO's and on the spot fines etc than have the balls to reign in Tesco ASDA and the likes...
Ohh... I am so annoyed... I'll have to go have a pint tonight
The Unabomber bit (can be found on Google easily) talks about how it's not particularly hard to hold down a job and put food on the table these days for most people in societies like ours. Mumford also talks about the use of technology / servants to make things easier and take the skill out of jobs or remove the need for certain tasks completely which made for some very bored and meaningless existences of a lot of the ruling classes who indeed turned to drink and drugs and other 'surrogate activities'. I guess that this has worked its way down to the masses as suggested by the U.M. Most of us don't live in a challenging environment and can coast along quite easily with minimal effort and get by. The drinking and drugs part is escapism from this and obesity is also another side effect.
I guess this also ties into the destruction of meaningful jobs now too... I guess it's much more satisfying to be able to run your own local shop and work in a nice environment than it is to have to work in some supermarket due to local shops being run out of business.
My sister works in ASDA and has to put up with all manner of rubbish like disiplineries for being off work sick (I suggested she just go in and vomit on the conveyer belt) in mock US court style hearings where you can take 'a witness' (I suggested taking a keep-left bollard with a wig on it) - idiotic, 'tin pot Hitler', condescending, lower management, sociopaths that have decided to victimise her for making them look like idiots on their last 'oh you had some time off ill' incident (where she pointed out that they had contravened health and safety law in demanding her return to work less than three days after an illness that required such delay - yes they hate people that are actually aware of things like this).
It's no surprise that people in these situations develop mental health issues / depression / drinking habits etc (apart from mild depression she hasn't developed the rest yet
)It hacks me off that the same people who shop there (thus support these places) are the same people that moan about that state of society in general and simply cannot see that such behaviour is at least partially attributable to their actions. I've worked in factories and warehouses in the past and have seen similar kinds of things going on and what it does to people.
To bring it back to peak oil... it cannot be long now until the wheels some off the tescopoly and relocalisation of a lot of things start to make financial sense again (as opposed to just plain common sense as they have always been). When people are more engaged in such activities as making useful things and growing things again, we'll probably see an end to the over drinking and obesity etc and things will get back to normal again.
In the mean time it's just mightily irksome to have to listen to all the government and tabloid drivel about these problems, diverting attention from the root causes back onto the symptoms... it's easier to send the police out to issue ASBO's and on the spot fines etc than have the balls to reign in Tesco ASDA and the likes...
Ohh... I am so annoyed... I'll have to go have a pint tonight