Peak Religion

[Andy Hunt]

Good, its interesting that most religious people don?t follow their religion. In the case of islam and xianity it?s a good job too!

Which bits of Christianity require chopping off people's heads? Could you show me where Jesus condoned that?

I think it's where he said, "love your neighbour as yourself".

Obviously if you like chopping off your own head, it's only fair to treat other people the same way.

[sentiententity]

Me

in 400-odd years of using the scientific system, we have wiped out smallpox and made trivial any number of other diseases, invented the internet, discovered the age and size of the universe, been to the moon, etc...In the 100,000-odd years of using the religious system before that, we got, er, witch burnings.

Tess

The impression you gave in your post was that science-all-good and religion-all-bad ("witch-burnings"!).

Yesterday we get:
http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080214/ ... 8.576.html and
http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080206/ ... 8.551.html
amongst dozens of others. Not to be outdone, the religionists are making their contribution:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 244579.stm

Sigh.

s.

[isenhand]

Well, I don't know about "feels good" as a reason, but I agree that I will only consider explanations that are consistent with the Bible. That's the logical thing to do if you believe you've found a source of absolute truth.

But that belief is how you feel about it, rather than following logically from evidence.

Yes, that's exactly what they do.... not

Good, its interesting that most religious people don?t follow their religion. In the case of islam and xianity it?s a good job too!

Which bits of Christianity require chopping off people's heads? Could you show me where Jesus condoned that?

I was talking about religion generally and that specific example comes from islam. However, I?m sure you are aware of the many mass murders and genocide ordered by the xian god.

I wonder, would you have participated in the mass murders order in the past by your god?


.ui

[RevdTess]

Mike - thanks for contributing so patiently - I appreciate your insight into the Christian evangelical mindset. As you may recall me mentioning, I too once counted myself a member of that worldview, though for me it all flowed from a feeling that the christians I met at college were living life more 'skillfully' (to borrow a buddhist expression) and compassionately than I was - something I wished to emulate.

In fact, if I may encourage you, I actually came to Christianity because of the compassionate reaction by a Christian during an online debate in 1991 much like this one, in which I was extremely nasty to someone who responded with such absolute patience, respect and compassion that I immediate walked across campus to find out what spirituality could make a person respond so kindly to such abuse.

My belief in God was something I had to logically argue myself into in order to follow the Christian path. Later I found that christians were not as skilful or compassionate as I'd thought, and in due course I began to feel that Christianity was now limiting rather than encouraging the development of wisdom and compassion in me. So I started to look at other spiritual paths. My belief in God became somewhat moot.

I'd have to say that while I was immersed in a worldview that took the Bible as truth, it was my increasing sense that I actually didn't approve of a large portion of the morality (or perhaps rather 'priorities') taught by the bible (and church), and this eventually squeezed me out of Christianity altogether.

But that's by-the-by. What I wanted to ask you was how you came to your belief in the Bible-as-Truth. It doesn't flow automatically from a belief in God in my experience, and if you'd been raised in an Islamic culture you'd have been far more likely to accept the Qu'ran as the inspired Word of God rather than the Bible. I don't ask this to attack your faith, but rather to understand the thought process that took you to faith in the truth of the Bible once the existence (and nature of?) God was a given for you.

Again, since most of your other views flow naturally from your belief in biblical truth I would be interested in how you got from belief in God to trust in the Bible. It's not something that ever happened for me, perhaps because I trusted my own feelings as to right-and-wrong more than I trusted what I was reading. I wasnt willing to 'step down' to accept what I saw as an inferior moral code... Arrogant I know, but not something I could just choose to ignore.

Thanks for your insight.

[Blue Peter]

Actually, the idea is that you forgive 70x7, after, and because God has forgiven you - because you have been forgiven for all your sin, who are you to hold anything against someone else.

...

I think you're got he wrong end of the stick (from my point of view, at least). God has already paid the price required to forgive us, it's not so much that we need to "ask", as to accept. But to accept forgiveness from God means to acknowledge sin and our inability to overcome it, the existence of God, and the death and resurrection of Jesus - which is the bit people have a problem with.

But you still need to do something...forgiveness will be given, if only you'd accept it. Whereas I have to forgive my enemies whether they accept it or not.

Though, as I think you've alluded to previously, I would have thought that you'd have a problem with a person having to do anything to be saved, since that would be salvation through works, rather than through God's grace alone. But obviously, that leads towards the rather throny path of predestination and why God chooses not to save many people.

I suppose that it's worth saying that I think that the doctrine of no salvation through works does reflect an important psychological truth. Even a bit of introspection should reveal that accepting God's forgiveness is partially (or even wholly in some cases) motivated by a fear of hell, and thus doesn't really count. In other words, works which are done to achieve salvation are tainted and don't count because they are not motivated by love. But, as I say, this does throw you into the throes of predestination controversies, for which the appropriate emoticon is presumably


Peter.

[mikepepler]

Isenhand - if I'd been living in OT times, perhaps I would have been involved in religious wars, as that's part of how God was operating then. I don't believe that any religious wars since then have been sanctioned or ordered by God, and don't expect any to be in future. Oh, and why the use of "xian"? I've never seen it used as an abbreviation before?

Peter - you're right that predestination is a thorny topic, even among Christians! Probably a bit much to go into here, but we can if you like...

But that's by-the-by. What I wanted to ask you was how you came to your belief in the Bible-as-Truth. It doesn't flow automatically from a belief in God in my experience, and if you'd been raised in an Islamic culture you'd have been far more likely to accept the Qu'ran as the inspired Word of God rather than the Bible. I don't ask this to attack your faith, but rather to understand the thought process that took you to faith in the truth of the Bible once the existence (and nature of?) God was a given for you.

Since most of your other views flow naturally from your belief in biblical truth I would be interested in how you got from belief in God to trust in the Bible. It's not something that ever happened for me, perhaps because I trusted my own feelings as to right-and-wrong more than I trusted what I was reading. I wasnt willing to 'step down' to accept what I saw as an inferior moral code... Arrogant I know, but not something I could just choose to ignore.

Well, I was brought up in a Christian family, but around the age of 16 progressively moved away from God. This continued almost all the way through university, until I was about 25.

At this point, without contact with any Christians, I began to get an increasingly strong feeling that I ought to be reading my Bible. I did so, and a few weeks later I had several situations which challenged me to make my mind up what I believed and start to live by it. Now right through the period I was ignoring God, I still believed He existed at the back of my mind, but this was as if He was pushing his way into my mind and forcing the situation.

After a few weeks of reading, prayer and meditation, I got "reconnected" to God, and had a much stronger faith than before, that was more real and less theoretical. All this happened on my own, without family or church being involved. The difference in me was quite profound, and several people commented on it over the following months.

Anyway, things went along fine for a while, I got married, and Tracy and I were looking into becoming mission workers (with an emphasis on aid and development). But then along came peak oil.... We both quite quickly came to the conclusion that we weren't to go and do mission work (there's a longer story in there...), but not before we'd visited a string of countries (with me reading The Party's Over on the way!). We decided to stop going to a church in Oxford 10 miles away, and go to one we could walk to. (there is a point to telling you all this)

Now, up until this point, I still believed in the theory of evolution (to pick one example from several), but had some confused ideas about how it fitted in with the Bible. But at the new church we were going to, which was much smaller than the old one, the teaching and meetings were oriented much more towards getting to know God properly, as in a deep personal relationship. This was compared to our old church, which was much more about intellectual study of the Bible and practical application of it to life today. Not that that isn't important, but it's a bit like trying to have a successful marriage (or other relationship) by reading books and following instructions, without actually bothering to get to know the other person.

So, through the couple of years we were at this church, I was challenged by God as to why I didn't accept the whole Bible and use it as the basis for my faith. Now if this had happened earlier, I'm not sure how I would have resolved the matter, but because it happened at the point when I was entering a deeper relationship with God, it was quite straightforward, because I was no longer dealing with a dusty old book which came second to science, etc., but the word of the living God, who I was getting to know on a personal basis.

I suppose it's a bit like reading an autobiography - you might decide the author has made some of it up, but then on meeting them and getting to know them as a friend, you may change your mind and realise they aren't the kind of person to do that. Poor analogy perhaps, but hopefully it gets the idea across?

So to go back to your main point:

Since most of your other views flow naturally from your belief in biblical truth I would be interested in how you got from belief in God to trust in the Bible. It's not something that ever happened for me.

I suppose the key is this: belief in God is only the start, a progressively deepening relationship with Him is what enables you to trust Him, and trust His Word. And like any relationship, both sides have to want it, and work at it. God wants it, and will work at it, but not without your consent and participation.

I hope that all makes sense!?

[RevdTess]

I suppose it's a bit like reading an autobiography - you might decide the author has made some of it up, but then on meeting them and getting to know them as a friend, you may change your mind and realise they aren't the kind of person to do that. Poor analogy perhaps, but hopefully it gets the idea across?

Quite good analogy actually I think. Thanks for that. I'll have a think and may or may not add more later.

[RevdTess]

Edit: In fact I'll add my first thought now, that the difference between your experience and mine was that I came to a belief in God as a byproduct of seeking 'community' and 'personal improvement'. It was a necessary prerequisite for the path it seemed at the time.

But I never developed a 'relationship' with God and if I'm honest I never really 'liked' the character of God that was revealed to me by bible and church. Prayer though was another matter and *that* God seemed beautiful. But it seemed to me it could not be the same God I was seeing in church and Bible, and I concluded I was engaging in mental wish-fulfilment... And even if I had believed I was developing a relationship with God, I wasn't sure I could live a life surrounded by a church and bible portraying something apparently quite different to my experience of Him.

I would probably have been a Gnostic and burned...

[mikepepler]

Edit: In fact I'll add my first thought now, that the difference between your experience and mine was that I came to a belief in God as a byproduct of seeking 'community' and 'personal improvement'. It was a necessary prerequisite for the path it seemed at the time.

I think many people go down that road, and then just hang around in the curch - you have more integrity because you left when you realised it wasn't right (if "right" is the word?).

But I never developed a 'relationship' with God and if I'm honest I never really 'liked' the character of God that was revealed to me by bible and church. Prayer though was another matter and *that* God seemed beautiful. But it seemed to me it could not be the same God I was seeing in church and Bible, and I concluded I was engaging in mental wish-fulfilment... And even if I had believed I was developing a relationship with God, I wasn't sure I could live a life surrounded by a church and bible portraying something apparently quite different to my experience of Him.

Some churches do not reveal the character of God - if they are off-centre in their focus, the character of God they demonstrate will be warped, or maybe even largely false.

It's interesting that my "coming back to God" experience happened just with me, God and a Bible, no church involved. It hadn't occurred to me that that was important, but perhaps it was...

I don't think there's anything to stop you pursuing a relationship with God through prayer first, though reading the Bible along with it is pretty key. Church can come later, and it's important to find the one God wants you in, or if you're Andy Hunt perhaps none at all!

[Andy Hunt]

Church can come later, and it's important to find the one God wants you in, or if you're Andy Hunt perhaps none at all!

I'm in the church that God wants me in.

A church is a community, a fellowship of people with a common purpose and a common resolve. It doesn't require a building to meet in, or a name even.

I feel as though I am in touch with the people I am supposed to be in touch with, many of whom are on this forum, or over on INEBG, or on the music forum I'm on, or in my day-to-day life, old friends and new, some who would say they are spiritual, and some who wouldn't.

Sometimes I meet someone I've never met before, and we know each other instantly. There's no need for explanation and no confusion in understanding each other.

It's hard to put my finger on, I call it 'cosmic' because I'm a bit of a hippy. But a lot of the people I'm talking about aren't hippies, and don't call it anything, because it seems to be stating the obvious a lot of the time.

For me, the book of life is written in people's eyes and in people's hearts, and if you know how to read it then you can learn from it. Lessons come in all guises, and for me that's part of the challenge. It is for me to not judge a book by its cover, and to read the truth inside, not for others to serve it up to me on a plate.

Life is wonderful and mysterious . . . but there are no coincidences. There is a reason behind everything, God's will if you like, and figuring out what it is is all there is to do in life, really. Once you discern God's will, then you can understand much better how you fit into the universe, and that brings peace of mind. But God's will is disguised in many different languages and many different forms, it needs to be deciphered and divined. Hence the term 'divine' presumably . . . it is the resolution of a mystery, and not obvious.

That's how I feel about it all . . .

[mikepepler]

Andy, you're spot on when you say a church doesn't need a building. It is a group of like-minded people meeting together.

For Christians, THE church is an all-encompassing group that does not respect boundaries of nation, race or denomination - the common factor is their faith. That's why I'm pleased that our current church (as in our local bit of it) has a a sign on the front of their building saying "Rye Baptist Church meets here", making the point that it is not the building - other places just say "XXX Church", referring to the building....

Having said that though, we won't sign up to be "official" members, as we don't want to be party to any particular denomination, and are going to the church we do simply because it's where God wants us right now.

At our old church, if you were a Christian, and attending regularly, then you were considered a member, and welcome to come to all meetings - there was no "inner circle" of people who had signed up to some declaration of faith. I wish all churches were like that...

[isenhand]

Isenhand - if I'd been living in OT times, perhaps I would have been involved in religious wars, as that's part of how God was operating then.

I wouldn?t have. I don?t think mass-murder and genocide is acceptable.

I don't believe that any religious wars since then have been sanctioned or ordered by God, and don't expect any to be in future.

I think there are xians who disagree. Certainly are other people in other religions who believe its right to go around killing others because its god?s will.

Oh, and why the use of "xian"? I've never seen it used as an abbreviation before?

Cos it short and I can spell it. I picked it up from some chat somewhere.

Well, I was brought up in a Christian family, ... I began to get an increasingly strong feeling that I ought to be reading my Bible....After a few weeks of reading, prayer and meditation, I got "reconnected" to God, and had a much stronger faith than before, that was more real and less theoretical. All this happened on my own, without family or church being involved. The difference in me was quite profound, and several people commented on it over the following months.... as in a deep personal relationship.

That?s sort of common to many xians (including me when I was a xian). Religion is all about feelings not about facts nor what is real. As such its all about being human than any god.

.ui

[RevdTess]

Oh, and why the use of "xian"? I've never seen it used as an abbreviation before?

Cos it short and I can spell it. I picked it up from some chat somewhere.

Back in 1994 I first heard 'xian' from a pagan american online friend. I was quite offended at the time (I was Christian then) because I saw it as a deliberate attempt to remove 'christ' from the word, perhaps as an subtle insult.

In fact, as my friend explained, it was purely a convenient abbreviation, no offence intended.

[Blue Peter]

Oh, and why the use of "xian"? I've never seen it used as an abbreviation before?

Cos it short and I can spell it. I picked it up from some chat somewhere.

Back in 1994 I first heard 'xian' from a pagan american online friend. I was quite offended at the time (I was Christian then) because I saw it as a deliberate attempt to remove 'christ' from the word, perhaps as an subtle insult.

In fact, as my friend explained, it was purely a convenient abbreviation, no offence intended.

I didn't really pick up on the comment at first, but X is a common abbreviation for Christ....very commonly used in the lead up to 25th December (or Xmas as it's often known ).

From Wikipedia:

The word "Christ" and its compounds, including "Christmas", have been abbreviated for at least the past 1,000 years, long before the modern "Xmas" was commonly used. "Christ" was often written as "XP" or "Xt"; there are references in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle as far back as 1021 AD. This X and P arose as the uppercase forms of the Greek letters χ and ρ), used in ancient abbreviations for Χριστος (Greek for "Christ"), and are still widely seen in many Eastern Orthodox icons depicting Jesus Christ. The labarum, an amalgamation of the two Greek letters rendered as ☧, is a symbol often used to represent Christ in Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox Christian Churches.[2]

Peter.