Peak Religion

[mikepepler]

I believe in judgement, heaven and hell, and don't want any of my fellow human beings to suffer the latter, ?

I find it hard to understand why one would worship such a cruel, insecure and vicious entity, except out of fear. And why would one want to live in fear? That is no more than slavery. And even worse, indoctrinate one's children into that fear from the very day of their birth?

God's not cruel, but just. I think most people accept that if you do something wrong you get punished, that's what much of our national law is for. Expand this to a larger scale - God, as the very definition of "good", sets the standard by which you can judge what is "bad" and deserves punishment.

Now the punishment, hell, can simply be defined as a place where God isn't. Perhaps an atheist would be happier there than anywhere else? Perhaps not though, because our present reality is a place where God is, and although we have our free will to cause harm, and so do evil spiritual powers, God does restrain what might happen. Things could be worse, and in hell they will be, simply because God will not be there restraining the evil that could happen.

So you end up with a problem - if God is just, He can not permit anyone to enter heaven, because he can not tolerate any sin in His presence. But, He loves the people He has created, and so to provide a way for us to be given life, he paid the price of sin Himself, as Jesus. I expect this isn't news to anyone though - it's just a matter of whether you believe it or not.

So, to sum it up, I don't live in fear, I live in the secure knowledge that there is a God who loves me and wants to be in a personal relationship with me, and any other human being who is interested. I know that He will protect my wellbeing - but that doesn't mean I will never have any hard times, as such things are part of the "training process" that life on Earth is. My wellbeing that matters is not physical, but spiritual, and that lasts for eternity, so a measly 70 or 80 years here will seem insignificant in the long run.

[Blue Peter]

Now the punishment, hell, can simply be defined as a place where God isn't.

As God is infinite, there can be no place where he isn't,


Peter.

[EmptyBee]

Now the punishment, hell, can simply be defined as a place where God isn't.

As God is infinite, there can be no place where he isn't,


Peter.

Doesn't that imply pantheism?

[Blue Peter]

Now the punishment, hell, can simply be defined as a place where God isn't.

As God is infinite, there can be no place where he isn't,


Peter.

Doesn't that imply pantheism?

No. It would be more like panenthism:

Panentheism (from Greek πᾶν (p?n) "all"; ἐν (en) "in"; and θεός (The?s) "God"; "all-in-God") A panentheistic belief system is one which posits that the one God interpenetrates every part of nature, and timelessly extends beyond as well. Panentheism is distinguished from pantheism, which holds that God is synonymous with the material universe.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism

However, I'm not sure that that is right either. I am very rusty on this, and you can't really say anything in positive language, since God is not an object, and our language onlyapplies to objects (and processes, etc.). For instance, the quote above implies that whilst God interpenetrates every part of nature, he is different from it. This would imply that God was not infinite since there is something that bounds him, something that is not him...and yet, God is not everything...

It's not really describable,


Peter.

[Kieran]

I believe in judgement, heaven and hell, and don't want any of my fellow human beings to suffer the latter, ?

I find it hard to understand why one would worship such a cruel, insecure and vicious entity, except out of fear. And why would one want to live in fear? That is no more than slavery. And even worse, indoctrinate one's children into that fear from the very day of their birth?

God's not cruel, but just. I think most people accept that if you do something wrong you get punished, that's what much of our national law is for. Expand this to a larger scale - God, as the very definition of "good", sets the standard by which you can judge what is "bad" and deserves punishment.

Now the punishment, hell, can simply be defined as a place where God isn't. Perhaps an atheist would be happier there than anywhere else? Perhaps not though, because our present reality is a place where God is, and although we have our free will to cause harm, and so do evil spiritual powers, God does restrain what might happen. Things could be worse, and in hell they will be, simply because God will not be there restraining the evil that could happen.

So you end up with a problem - if God is just, He can not permit anyone to enter heaven, because he can not tolerate any sin in His presence. But, He loves the people He has created, and so to provide a way for us to be given life, he paid the price of sin Himself, as Jesus. I expect this isn't news to anyone though - it's just a matter of whether you believe it or not.

So, to sum it up, I don't live in fear, I live in the secure knowledge that there is a God who loves me and wants to be in a personal relationship with me, and any other human being who is interested. I know that He will protect my wellbeing - but that doesn't mean I will never have any hard times, as such things are part of the "training process" that life on Earth is. My wellbeing that matters is not physical, but spiritual, and that lasts for eternity, so a measly 70 or 80 years here will seem insignificant in the long run.

Hmmm...now let's see. If I were this God person and a being of pure love then I would totally understand and feel compassion for the poor f***ed up and deluded humans who just didn't understand how great I was and how much joy I could bring them. I would give them infinite opportunities to change their ways and come to me as only the stupid or neurotic would rebel against me. The last thing I would ever do is throw these confused unfortunates into hell and let them experience agonies for ever and ever with no chance for them to realise their mistake and come join me in heaven.

Now if even little old unenlightened me as I am in real life can muster up this much compassion and understanding why can't this God, this Being of Infinite Love of yours do the same? Your argument is a complete nonsense Mike and it beats me why so many Christians ( including my family) who otherwise seem like pretty nice, decent people even want to believe in this set of ideas. I mean honestly it's almost Lovecraftian in it's horror.

I'll end this little outburst with a link to one of my favourite songs from the incomparable Danielle Dax
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqhym59ypUI
YouTube - Danielle Dax - BIG HOLLOW MAN

[Keela]

This is a letter by Richard Dawkins to his daughter which I think might be useful for understanding the position of science.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Dawki ... ghter.html

I'm sure many folk have read it before.

I have to say I know of many scientists who also have strong religious faith so this is not the view of all scientists.

Unfortunately there are Christian fundamental groups in America who are attempting to force people to go one way or the other - over the issue of evolution. I think it is those people that Dawkins has most argument with. As a biology teacher I too would be annoyed if I had to teach "creation science" (not science in my view) along side evolution.

[syberberg]

I'll end this little outburst with a link to one of my favourite songs from the incomparable Danielle Dax
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqhym59ypUI
YouTube - Danielle Dax - BIG HOLLOW MAN

Hmmmm, Danielle Dax. <drool>

[Andy Hunt]

I find it hard to understand why one would worship such a cruel, insecure and vicious entity, except out of fear. And why would one want to live in fear? That is no more than slavery. And even worse, indoctrinate one's children into that fear from the very day of their birth?

God's not cruel, but just. I think most people accept that if you do something wrong you get punished, that's what much of our national law is for. Expand this to a larger scale - God, as the very definition of "good", sets the standard by which you can judge what is "bad" and deserves punishment.

Now the punishment, hell, can simply be defined as a place where God isn't. Perhaps an atheist would be happier there than anywhere else? Perhaps not though, because our present reality is a place where God is, and although we have our free will to cause harm, and so do evil spiritual powers, God does restrain what might happen. Things could be worse, and in hell they will be, simply because God will not be there restraining the evil that could happen.

So you end up with a problem - if God is just, He can not permit anyone to enter heaven, because he can not tolerate any sin in His presence. But, He loves the people He has created, and so to provide a way for us to be given life, he paid the price of sin Himself, as Jesus. I expect this isn't news to anyone though - it's just a matter of whether you believe it or not.

So, to sum it up, I don't live in fear, I live in the secure knowledge that there is a God who loves me and wants to be in a personal relationship with me, and any other human being who is interested. I know that He will protect my wellbeing - but that doesn't mean I will never have any hard times, as such things are part of the "training process" that life on Earth is. My wellbeing that matters is not physical, but spiritual, and that lasts for eternity, so a measly 70 or 80 years here will seem insignificant in the long run.

Hmmm...now let's see. If I were this God person and a being of pure love then I would totally understand and feel compassion for the poor f***ed up and deluded humans who just didn't understand how great I was and how much joy I could bring them. I would give them infinite opportunities to change their ways and come to me as only the stupid or neurotic would rebel against me. The last thing I would ever do is throw these confused unfortunates into hell and let them experience agonies for ever and ever with no chance for them to realise their mistake and come join me in heaven.

Now if even little old unenlightened me as I am in real life can muster up this much compassion and understanding why can't this God, this Being of Infinite Love of yours do the same? Your argument is a complete nonsense Mike and it beats me why so many Christians ( including my family) who otherwise seem like pretty nice, decent people even want to believe in this set of ideas. I mean honestly it's almost Lovecraftian in it's horror.

Cthulhu calls!!!

I think the point is that there is always a chance for people to change their ways - even for someone who is in hell, if they seek the truth then they will find it and be allowed another chance. This is the basis of our whole justice system, which rejects capital punishment.

To expand upon hell, it's a psychological place characterised by fear. If you read the four Gospels, the Revelation etc, there is a lot of reference to 'fire'. If you replace the word 'fire' with the word 'fear', the meaning becomes much clearer. People who lie a lot, and so distance themselves from the truth, end up getting very paranoid and thinking that everyone is out to get them - and the reason for this is that rejecting the truth, or trying to author your own version of the truth in denial of what is patently obvious, results in mental illness which is characterised by fear taking over the psyche.

Fear is debilitating and tormenting (hence the analogy with fire which consumes and destroys), and is what you get when you pursue certain avenues of reality. The only way to get over it is to admit to yourself and everyone else that you have been taking a wrong path, get honest and make a public and private commitment to try to get a grip on reality and treat others with the same respect you would hope for yourself.

God is the truth, reality, and can always be returned to as a reference point. Hell is really self-delusion (if you lie to others you have to believe your own lies in order to appear convincing), and the fires of hell are the fears of paranoia and self-imposed separation from other people as you immerse yourself in your own delusion.

When you ask God for forgiveness, you are really asking forgiveness of your own subconscious mind, which is always in touch with the reality of your situation. The minute you ask yourself for a fresh start is the minute you make one.

This situation is NOT to be confused with 'pseudo' Christianity where you can publicly declare you are 'born again' and so be totally absolved of everything you have done wrong - with 'real' Christianity, you are always held to account for what you have done but given a chance to try to make amends if you are genuinely repentant - which is the thinking behind our current justice system.

Hell is eternal only for those who do not repent. If you refuse to admit to yourself that you have done wrong, you are condemned to mental illness and paranoia.

If you are wrongly accused and know that you have done nothing wrong, then you have nothing to fear.

[mikepepler]

I think the point is that there is always a chance for people to change their ways - even for someone who is in hell, if they seek the truth then they will find it and be allowed another chance.

??? Where does that come from Andy? Or are you referring to your definition of a "psychological hell" rather than a place you end up after you die?

with 'real' Christianity, you are always held to account for what you have done but given a chance to try to make amends if you are genuinely repentant.

I'd phrase that slightly differently. Everyone is judged for what they have done, Christian or not, and the only thing that saves a person is if they have admitted that they have done wrong, acknowledged that Jesus died to pay the price they should have paid themselves, and acknowledged Him as Lord. "Making amends" doesn't come into it - you don't "earn" your way into heaven, you accept it as a gift, which is free, but will cost your life - if that makes sense!?!?

If you are wrongly accused and know that you have done nothing wrong, then you have nothing to fear.

Spot on. But we've all done something wrong I think... (anyone feel free to speak up if they haven't )

[mikepepler]

I would give them infinite opportunities to change their ways and come to me as only the stupid or neurotic would rebel against me. The last thing I would ever do is throw these confused unfortunates into hell and let them experience agonies for ever and ever with no chance for them to realise their mistake and come join me in heaven.

We do have a lot of opportunities - every day we're alive (p.s. this is one now )! I imagine if someone reaches the end of a normal lifespan and has still chosen to reject God, then they have pretty much made their minds up. When they finally meet their maker they'll probably simply be angry with Him, rather than begging for forgiveness. Who knows what happens though? Maybe if you claim you never had the chance, you get shown all the opportunities you rejected in your life? This is pure speculation now though...

At the end of the day everyone has a choice. We can choose to enter judgement on our own, or with a saviour. Hoping that good deeds will outweigh bad deeds is a bit of a forlorn hope - would you expect a judge in this country to let a criminal off just because they'd done lots of good things too?

Now if even little old unenlightened me as I am in real life can muster up this much compassion and understanding why can't this God, this Being of Infinite Love of yours do the same?

He's already given His life for you - what more do you want?

[Andy Hunt]

I think the point is that there is always a chance for people to change their ways - even for someone who is in hell, if they seek the truth then they will find it and be allowed another chance.

??? Where does that come from Andy? Or are you referring to your definition of a "psychological hell" rather than a place you end up after you die?

I see the essence of consciousness as extending beyond the boundaries of physicality. Death is just the point at which the cosmic forces beyond your control take control of your destiny - but those forces are echoes of our own actions, amongst others. So in this way we write the destiny of our own soul whilst we are alive. But death doesn't have to be physical for this to happen - a nervous breakdown is a kind of death, where control is lost.

In Revelation there is talk of a 'first' and also a 'second death' - whoever repents and overcomes 'will not be hurt of the second death'.

As I said, hell is eternal - but only for those who do not repent.

with 'real' Christianity, you are always held to account for what you have done but given a chance to try to make amends if you are genuinely repentant.

I'd phrase that slightly differently. Everyone is judged for what they have done, Christian or not, and the only thing that saves a person is if they have admitted that they have done wrong, acknowledged that Jesus died to pay the price they should have paid themselves, and acknowledged Him as Lord. "Making amends" doesn't come into it - you don't "earn" your way into heaven, you accept it as a gift, which is free, but will cost your life - if that makes sense!?!?

The only thing that saves a person is if they admit to themselves and the world that they have done wrong. That in itself will put that person back in touch with his/her own subconscious mind, which is the only thing which can remove fear. This person may never have heard of Jesus Christ, but if he/she does this, then he/she will be OK. That being said, the only reason I understand any of this AT ALL is because of the teachings of Jesus, and I acknowledge him as the master of the human consciousness, who is thus qualified to teach about it. He died to prove that you can't kill the truth. We must all take responsibility for our own errors and misdemeanours, and Jesus' teachings help us to do this from a point of strength. After all, "The Lord helps those who help themselves . . . "

Heaven is with all of us, all the time - admission to Heaven is gained by training one's own perception to appreciate the former fact, which requires humility and contemplation. The eternal consciouness exists either side of death, which is really illusory. As it is written, "whatever you bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven". There is no difference. So as you say Mike, the moment you accept Heaven as a gift, you perceive it, and that in itself changes your consciousness, so there is no going back - it has taken over your life, as you say. But the act of admitting to yourself that you have done wrong results in the same perception and psychological change. And so "repent - for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand!" - as the man says!

If you are wrongly accused and know that you have done nothing wrong, then you have nothing to fear.

Spot on. But we've all done something wrong I think... (anyone feel free to speak up if they haven't )

Of course we have, we all have room for improvement - I was talking about if 'one' is accused of something specific.

To overcome fear, one need only seek the truth. Which is why this forum is the friendliest one going, despite the awful truth!

The truth empowers us, whereas the fear which comes from self-inlficted ignorance disempowers and debilitates us. We have the choice as to which route we take.

[Aurora]

Mike, just one question.

If you had been born in Iran, which religion do you suppose you would be following today?

[sentiententity]

God's not cruel, but just

He tortured poor Job for quite a while, just to win a bet. (Not to mention killing all his family). The Midianites (whose only sin, as far as I could tell from my reading, was that their women were pretty hot), were exterminated (men, women and male children), except for the virgin females, kept as sex slaves by Moses' army. Various plagues visited on entire peoples because of more or less minor transgressions of their leaders, or because they had the misfortune to be living in the wrong bit of desert. Extermination of entire cities, or, thinking really big, almost all of humanity (Noah's flood). Why, even the Adam and Eve story is a complete stacked deck/entrapment situation. Indeed, why give someone free will if you don't want them to develop their wisdom anyway? And the concept of original sin is hardly just...more the creation of a sicko. And then what's the deal with the "sacrifice" of the son? One can't meaningfully apologise on someone else's behalf (one of the reasons why the salvery "reparations" movement is ridiculous), but even if you could, if you are the entity who has set the trap, condemned all subsequent generations after the innocents fall into it, and then apologise to yourself on behalf of the "sins" that you have deemed were sins...

It's all a bit odd, really.

lthough we have our free will to cause harm, and so do evil spiritual powers

This doesn't explain harm not caused by misuse of human free will.

God does restrain what might happen

Hmmm...so Hitler would have bagged more than 6 million jews without god's timely intervention, then? I'd have expected better from an omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent entity. Or maybe he had something else to do. I have noticed for example that sportsmen sometimes thank god for their success. Maybe there was a game on or something.

s.

[/i]

[Adam1]

If you had been born in Iran, which religion do you suppose you would be following today?

Have you tried Zoroastrianism?

[Kieran]

I would give them infinite opportunities to change their ways and come to me as only the stupid or neurotic would rebel against me. The last thing I would ever do is throw these confused unfortunates into hell and let them experience agonies for ever and ever with no chance for them to realise their mistake and come join me in heaven.

We do have a lot of opportunities - every day we're alive (p.s. this is one now )! I imagine if someone reaches the end of a normal lifespan and has still chosen to reject God, then they have pretty much made their minds up. When they finally meet their maker they'll probably simply be angry with Him, rather than begging for forgiveness. Who knows what happens though? Maybe if you claim you never had the chance, you get shown all the opportunities you rejected in your life? This is pure speculation now though...

At the end of the day everyone has a choice. We can choose to enter judgement on our own, or with a saviour. Hoping that good deeds will outweigh bad deeds is a bit of a forlorn hope - would you expect a judge in this country to let a criminal off just because they'd done lots of good things too?

Now if even little old unenlightened me as I am in real life can muster up this much compassion and understanding why can't this God, this Being of Infinite Love of yours do the same?

He's already given His life for you - what more do you want?

You still don't get it do you?

It is strange you know, this odd blindspot that Christians have with the sheer viciousness of the god portrayed in the Bible.

I suspect that as PO and CC progress more people will turn to religion in a search for emotional security and even most moderates have beliefs that are pretty damn scary, once you scratch the surface.

Anyway, goodnight all... and may your god go with you