What a fascinating discussion, excellent.
sentiententity wrote:
A combination of conciousness, intelligence and self-awareness creates the illusion that "there must be something else out there".
What evidence is there that it is an illusion?
Surely, if consciousness perceives there to be "something else out there" in other words, something greater than itself, then that is an empirical truth.
Andy Hunt wrote:
No, science is the pursuit of a model which best describes the physical universe.
I agree, many people forget that.
Andy Hunt wrote:
Spirituality is the pursuit of the truth about human existence.
I would go further and say its the truth about why anything exists at all.
sentiententity wrote:
That is, accurately describes reality, external to ourselves - surely, the pursuit of truth.
Why does it have to be external to ourselves?
If science is to be the one true accurate model which describes reality then it must by necessity include a description of ourselves (its doing fairly well) and explain how inanimate matter can become animate (its doing less well) and evolve to become conscious of its own existence (its rubbish on the consciousness front).
isenhand wrote:
Building models is part of that search.
The problem is that because scientists are human they can become deluded that their particular model or view is the only truly accurate one.
They forget that the model or map is never complete, it is a limited representation of something bigger, "the map is not the territory".
Andy Hunt wrote:
It seems to me that as an eminent scientist (who seems to be respected here, and who Colin Campbell teasingly called "The Prophet") and committed Muslim, Dr Bakhtiari's understanding of the issues behind consciousness is excellent. Like Einstein, it seems that some of the very best visionary scientific minds have an appreciation of the spiritual.
I thoroughly approve of the use of the computer model or metaphor for the brain.
Although only an analogy it seems quite accurate, perhaps it has something to do with computers being the dominate technology of our age. Like the clockwork models and metaphors of the previous era.
sentiententity wrote:
Mind is dependent on matter.
If that is the case then where are the scientific theories and evidence on how matter gives rise to mind?
One of the few is James Culbertson's spacetime reductive materialism (SRM) model.
sentiententity wrote:
The matter is there before it is arranged into a brain capable of thinking, and it is still there after death and there is no mind.
How do you know there is no mind after death without having died (i assume, the internet can be tricky like that)?
There can be no empirical evidence one way or the other about it until you actually experience death.
The key word that you used there was
arranged, the arrangement of the matter seems to be equally important as the matter itself.
Going back to the computer model, a computer needs both software and hardware to function, both would be useless on their own.
sentiententity wrote:
These result in the loss of cognitive function and even personality, as mere matter changes (i.e., cells of the brain die). This shows that the mind is dependent on matter for function.
I don't think it does, it shows that the mind is intimately connected with the brain and that a change in the brain hardware has effects on the mind software and vice versa, e.g. learning a language creates changes in the brain.
sentiententity wrote:
You can get an idea of how powerful this is by looking around you: in 400-odd years of using the scientific system, we have wiped out smallpox and made trivial any number of other diseases, invented the internet, discovered the age and size of the universe, been to the moon, etc...
I would add to that the ability to destroy the very systems that sustain us.
sentiententity wrote:
In the 100,000-odd years of using the religious system before that, we got, er, witch burnings.
I would add to that fire, language, navigation by the stars, tool use, clothes etc.
sentiententity wrote:
No, no, No, NO! It has nothing to do with religion - no faith is required.
For someone who claims to be a non-religious atheist, which by the way is a religious belief system in itself, you seem to be displaying many of the signs of being a religious fundamentalist.
Lets see:
Fanatical belief that own belief system is the only truly accurate one.
Check
Unable to accept that it could be limited or incomplete in any way.
Check.
sentiententity wrote:
Mystery is just another word for mumbo-jumbo.
Condemnation and derision of other belief systems.
Check.
Science is great, i've studied and practiced it at length but you must beware of its limitations and problems.
It is my firm belief that it is a mistake to hold firm beliefs.
Humans always do the most intelligent thing after every stupid alternative has failed. - R. Buckminster Fuller
If you stare too long into the abyss, the abyss will stare back into you. - Friedrich Nietzche
