Peak Religion

Forum for general discussion of Peak Oil / Oil depletion; also covering related subjects

Moderator: Peak Moderation

RevdTess
Posts: 3054
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Glasgow

Post by RevdTess »

sentiententity wrote: I think you are using the word spirituality differently from how most people use it. Surely it's normally taken to refer to a level of self-aware existence different from the mind and the physical body, and permitting communication with a deity, if one exists?
It's quite likely we all have a different sense of what 'spirituality' means. The wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality gives a cross-section of the differing views that we might come up with. I seem to recall we had a big debate about it once before on this board, with the big bone of contention being whether 'spirituality' contains an implication of faith in something supernatural (or beyond empirical proof or testing).

I seem to recall at the time talking about my spirituality as more oriented towards a sense of awe one might feel at the existence of life, or human community, or the sense of self-aware identity, or anything that stirs up a 'wow' in one's mind.

These days I'd probably have a different definition. My spirituality would be equal parts 'wow' and 'how do I train myself respond to the world in a compassionate way?'. Neither definition really has much to do with the supernatural, that others see implicit in the world 'spiritual'.

I try to stay out of the raw debates on the existence or no of a Monotheistic Christian/Islamic Divinity. Even science has a hard time probing beyond the borders of the universe, so its theories for why the universe is the way it is are almost as wild as the theory of a Designer outside our reality and/or permeating it. Then we have to get into a debate about 'is a theory still a theory if it can't be tested or falsified' and all that creation/evolution proxy debate which would take forever and add nothing to the places it's already being done to death on t'interweb - http://www.creationsafaris.com/crevnews.htm and http://www.talkorigins.org/

It only really becomes an issue when spirituality becomes a reason to oppress people - i.e. make them act differently by force, or even kill them believing that one is doing a good thing by doing so. This is the great fear of atheists and agnostics and why a belief in gods that conveniently relabel cruelty towards others as something good is so feared and raged against. Even if someone has an apparently benign faith in something unseen and unproven, it will worry the empiricists to the core of their worldview.
RevdTess
Posts: 3054
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Glasgow

Post by RevdTess »

EmptyBee wrote: I've had an interest in Buddhism too for a while, and Buddhism in its essentials is a practice (dharma) that requires no dogmatic beliefs, while answering the most important (to my mind) philosophical question: how should I live?

I've never really identified myself as a humanist perhaps because it just strikes me as a bit too wooly in its prescriptions. It strikes me (given Aurora's manifesto) to be essentially utilitarianism.
I agree with you wholeheartedly.

There's nothing in the humanist manifesto I disagree with or find unworthy, but there is something about it that doesn't appeal. Your word 'utilitarian' is well chosen I think. It's a fine and worthy document, yet not something that inspires me to make it my life's focus. Now the dhamma-vinaya on the other hand, somehow does. Some contemplation is no doubt called for as to why that might be the case (for me).
User avatar
isenhand
Posts: 1296
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by isenhand »

Andy Hunt wrote:
sentiententity wrote:
Surely true spirituality is the pursuit of the truth?
No, that's Science.
No, science is the pursuit of a model which best describes the physical universe.
As I said, truth is a relative concept. Scientist search for truth in the context of an external reality. Building models is part of that search.
Andy Hunt wrote: Spirituality is the pursuit of the truth about human existence.
?Truth? in a spiritual sense is relative to what ever feels good. It has little to do with what actually ?is?.
Andy Hunt wrote: So whilst there may be no scientific model to describe it, it seems nonetheless true to say for example that love exists in the world,
There are such models! You can model it at various levels such as behaviour or neurological.

Andy Hunt wrote: It may be possible to explain love and hate scientifically in terms of biochemical brain processes, but in a way that's irrelevant because the salient facts are known and we can act on those without knowing the scientific model behind them.
Then there is a model ;)
The only future we have is the one we make!

Technocracy:
http://en.technocracynet.eu

http://www.lulu.com/technocracy

http://www.technocracy.tk/
Aurora

Post by Aurora »

User avatar
Andy Hunt
Posts: 6760
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Bury, Lancashire, UK

Post by Andy Hunt »

:lol:

It's a great debate of course, and ultimately all truth must be the one and the same truth, albeit perceived on different levels.

I personally am a 'Christian' I suppose, in that I have personally found Jesus' teachings in the four gospels and the Revelation of St John to be full of truth about being human. I'm not a churchgoer, I am 'free range' if you like. I can also see how his teachings connect and cross over with the other great spiritual traditions also - which of course they must, if indeed there is a fundamental truth.

I personally don't see a conflict between spirituality (if that's what you want to call it) and science. My understanding of spirituality isn't based on faith, it's based on my own perception. I see ample evidence for a human 'template', the mould out of which we are all pressed, if you like, and within which there is infinite room for differences, and that mould includes the basic design of the human mind, which is hugely powerful really.

The thing about being human which seems to have evaded scientific description so far is the whole business of consciousness and self-awareness, and I haven't found any satisfactory explanation yet of how this can arise out of 'inanimate' matter. Zen teaches that it is the mind which gives rise to matter rather than the other way around, and that is the way it seems to me also. Again, Zen refers to the enlightened mind as the 'unborn mind', that is to say the awareness which exists before consciousness.

In order for science to exist, there must first be an awareness capable of devising it and understanding it. Science is derived from experience.

The example I gave of love and hate was meant to show that we do not need to reduce existence to a scientific explanation in order to understand it. What is actually important is the meaning in our lives. We can model things scientifically, but it is the actual things which are real, not the scientific models of them.

The late Dr Ali Samsam Bakhtiari wrote an excellent essay entitled "Liberating":

(http://www.sfu.ca/~asamsamb/Liberating/Liberating.htm)

which contains this paragraph about the human brain:
THE HUMAN BRAIN
The human brain consists of roughly a trillion cells, a 100 billion of which are nerve cells, the so-called neurons [79]. And "every single neuron is a sophisticated computer" capable of "integrating up to 1000 synaptic inputs ... that do not add up in a simple linear manner" [80]. There are many different types of neurons -- from the rather simple granule neuron (with its short axon and a couple of sparse dendrites) to the ultra-sophisticated 'Purkinje' neuron with its up to 80,000 synapses [81] !!
The brain physically consists of two main parts: (1) the Cerebrum (the upper part) and (2) the Cerebellum (lower one). The former contains some 70 billion and the latter around 30 billion neurons [82]. But, in the total number of synapses, the Cerebellum, due to its monopoly on the awesome Purkinje neurons, might well come to rival, if not surpass, the Cerebrum. And, whereas the Cerebrum controls the brain's conscious activities, the Cerebellum "seems to act entirely unconsciously" [83].
Neuroscientists are still busy grappling with the basics of the Cerebrum's functions and operations, meeting puzzle after puzzle. For example, the four phenomena of (i) hearing words, (ii) seeing words, (iii) speaking words and (iv) generating words occur at four different regions of the Cerebrum [84]. No one knows why: this is how things are. Yet another example is that of the tennis player for whom "the movement, color or shape of a tennis ball are processed in different cortical visual centers" [85]. Where are then these three data sets integrated to yield a single picture of the oncoming ball is a mystery -- a mystery that will not be easily elucidated because analysing the constantly-evolving and intricate web of millions of interconnected neurons receiving hundreds of non-linear synaptical signals triggered by complex electro-chemical reactions seems to defy our potential human capabilities !
If the Cerebrum with its 'accessible' files already seems out of reach of human comprehension, then the Cerebellum with its 'hidden' files must be seen as a 'black box'. Especially that trying to understand the functions of larger neurons such as the 'Purkinje', without being able to benefit from direct access, appears practically impossible !
Sigmund Freud pioneered in linking "dreams to the unconscious" -- a proposal that has lately found, on hand of the latest evidence, a receptive echo among leading neuroscientists:

"For reasons he could not possibly have known, Freud set forth a profound truth in his work. There is an unconscious, and dreams are indeed the 'royal road' to its underst" [86].

Now, as science condones this 'royal road', it instanly places itself in deep trouble, because the meaning of dreams is still an archaic art and nowhere near to becoming a science. Just to underline the puzzling aspect of dreams, suffice it to mention the constrat between black-and-white and coloured dreams; and venturing the possible explanation that the former be profane dreams while the latter be "numinous, sacred, and holy" dreams for being "wholly other" (ganz anders) [87]; while adding that this is one among many possible explanations for this difference.
With the 'royal road' so enigmatic, other roads will be murkier still -- leaving little hope for deciphering the 'hidden' Cerebellum files and getting to the "deeper life of the psyche".
It seems to me that as an eminent scientist (who seems to be respected here, and who Colin Campbell teasingly called "The Prophet") and committed Muslim, Dr Bakhtiari's understanding of the issues behind consciousness is excellent. Like Einstein, it seems that some of the very best visionary scientific minds have an appreciation of the spiritual.

Is this a coincidence? I personally think not, but everyone must make their own judgement and arrive at their own understanding, of course.
Andy Hunt
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
Eternal Sunshine wrote: I wouldn't want to worry you with the truth. :roll:
User avatar
isenhand
Posts: 1296
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by isenhand »

Andy Hunt wrote:
The thing about being human which seems to have evaded scientific description so far is the whole business of consciousness and self-awareness, and I haven't found any satisfactory explanation yet of how this can arise out of 'inanimate' matter.
You haven?t looked at ?Society of Mind? by Mavin Minsky nor looked at ? The Emperor?s New Mind? by Roger Penrose?

.ui
The only future we have is the one we make!

Technocracy:
http://en.technocracynet.eu

http://www.lulu.com/technocracy

http://www.technocracy.tk/
sentiententity
Posts: 91
Joined: 01 Aug 2007, 17:08
Location: Edinburgh
Contact:

Post by sentiententity »

I personally don't see a conflict between spirituality (if that's what you want to call it) and science
I think it's unavoidable - there is. Science requires evidence for its claims. This is fundamental.
Zen teaches that it is the mind which gives rise to matter rather than the other way around
This is clearly not true. Mind is dependent on matter. The matter is there before it is arranged into a brain capable of thinking, and it is still there after death and there is no mind. Mind is a construct generated by matter (brain activity).

One of the reasons why I am an atheist is because there is no evidence for the soul (which I am defining as the existence of the conscious mind independent of the life of the body), but there is strong evidence against it: the existence of neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's. These result in the loss of cognitive function and even personality, as mere matter changes (i.e., cells of the brain die). This shows that the mind is dependent on matter for function. Taking things a little more widely, much of what we know about brain function, language and so on is derived from patients with very specific brain lesions, showing that specific functions of mind are dependent on specific bits of matter working correctly, perhaps most dramtically in the case of Phineas Gage, who survived catastrophic damage to the frontal cortex in a mining accident, but with remarkable personality changes.
...was meant to show that we do not need to reduce existence to a scientific explanation in order to understand it
I don't see it as a "reduction". This smacks of Keats' "unweaving the rainbow" to me. Real understanding (as opposed to revelling in ignorance or mysticism) is wonderful! This was part of my point in the final paragraph of my previous post.
it seems that some of the very best visionary scientific minds have an appreciation of the spiritual
The "wow" when looking at the stars, as Tess so brilliantly put it, is not the same as superstition or the preservation of ignorance.

s.
goslow
Posts: 705
Joined: 26 Nov 2007, 12:16

Post by goslow »


One of the reasons why I am an atheist is because there is no evidence for the soul (which I am defining as the existence of the conscious mind independent of the life of the body),
Christians as far as I aware (and I am not a theologian!) don't equate soul with mind (hence mind, body, spirit).

What do you think about the argument that you can't rule out the existence of something just because you yourself don't perceive any evidence of it??

Does that take us back to Peak Oil????!
Blue Peter
Posts: 1939
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Milton Keynes

Post by Blue Peter »

goslow wrote: Christians as far as I aware (and I am not a theologian!) don't equate soul with mind (hence mind, body, spirit).
So, what would they be equating soul with, then?

I'm not a theologian (or historian of ideas), but the meanings of the terms mind, body, soul, spirit, flesh, etc. have changed over time.

Christianity originally had a tripartite distinction - body, soul, spirit, but that tended to become a bipartite distinction of body and soul. In the tripartite version, the spirit was eternal; body and soul, being created things, were perishable. With the bipartite distinction (the loss of the spirit), the soul had to bear the desire for immortality, which, as noted, is fairly unbelievable.

I think that probably the best synonym for soul now would be 'mind' or 'ego', both (?) of which are perishable and so not something to pin your hopes on.


Peter.
Does anyone know where the love of God goes when the waves turn the seconds to hours?
sentiententity
Posts: 91
Joined: 01 Aug 2007, 17:08
Location: Edinburgh
Contact:

Post by sentiententity »

Christians as far as I aware (and I am not a theologian!) don't equate soul with mind (hence mind, body, spirit).
This is exactly my point: I have my own experience of my mind, and some people I meet ( :D ) behave as if they too have a mind; both are evidence of the existence of mind. There is no evidence for the existence of the third member of your triad above.
What do you think about the argument that you can't rule out the existence of something just because you yourself don't perceive any evidence of it??
I think it's a rubbish argument...completely negligible. The obligation is on you to present evidence suggesting that something is true, not on me to prove that it is not the case. Indeed, some philosophers of epistemology would argue that it is impossible to prove a negative. So I think what I did above, in providing strong evidence that an immortal sentient soul does not exist, represents a real and difficult challenge.

If I challenged you to prove that Quetzalcoatl, Zeus, Odin or the Flying Spaghetti Monster did not exist, I don't think you could. Does that mean that you would be unreasonable in maintaining your lack of belief in them?
Does that take us back to Peak Oil????!
No, quite the opposite. There is plenty of evidence that Peak Oil is real.

s.
Blue Peter
Posts: 1939
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Milton Keynes

Post by Blue Peter »

sentiententity wrote:
Christians as far as I aware (and I am not a theologian!) don't equate soul with mind (hence mind, body, spirit).
This is exactly my point: I have my own experience of my mind, and some people I meet ( :D ) behave as if they too have a mind; both are evidence of the existence of mind. There is no evidence for the existence of the third member of your triad above.
I have my own experience of my mind - who/what is the I which is experiencing this mind.

People behave as if they have a mind - this could be projection. If you look at these people (dissect them, perhaps?), you won't find a mind,


Peter.
Does anyone know where the love of God goes when the waves turn the seconds to hours?
Bozzio
Posts: 590
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Just outside Frome, Somerset

Post by Bozzio »

Blue Peter wrote:People behave as if they have a mind - this could be projection. If you look at these people (dissect them, perhaps?), you won't find a mind

That's only because you don't know what you are looking at. It all just looks like white flesh when in fact it's a dense network of physical pathways. The word mind is to me nothing more than a description of how those pathways are wired and since all our brains are unique, like fingerprints, it means our minds are different also.
User avatar
Erik
Posts: 1544
Joined: 21 Sep 2006, 17:17
Location: Spain

Post by Erik »

Blue Peter wrote:I have my own experience of my mind - who/what is the I which is experiencing this mind.
Indeed! If the only thing that can possibly be real is what is perceived, here and now, then who (or what, if anything) is doing the perceiving? Can "you" look inside "yourself" and actually see the seer? Based on present evidence alone can one prove beyond doubt that one has a head?!!

Extract from Douglas Harding's "On Having No Head":
http://www.headless.org/on-having-no-head.htm
The best day of my life?my rebirthday, so to speak?was when I found I had no head. This is not a literary gambit, a witticism designed to arouse interest at any cost. I mean it in all seriousness: I have no head.

...

What actually happened was something absurdly simple and unspectacular: I stopped thinking. A peculiar quiet, an odd kind of alert limpness or numbness, came over me. Reason and imagination and all mental chatter died down. For once, words really failed me. Past and future dropped away. I forgot who and what I was, my name, manhood, animalhood, all that could be called mine. It was as if I had been born that instant, brand new, mindless, innocent of all memories. There existed only the Now, that present moment and what was clearly given in it. To look was enough. And what I found was khaki trouserlegs terminating downwards in a pair of brown shoes, khaki sleeves terminating sideways in a pair of pink hands, and a khaki shirtfront terminating upwards in?absolutely nothing whatever! Certainly not in a head.

It took me no time at all to notice that this nothing, this hole where a head should have been was no ordinary vacancy, no mere nothing. On the contrary, it was very much occupied. It was a vast emptiness vastly filled, a nothing that found room for everything?room for grass, trees, shadowy distant hills, and far above them snowpeaks like a row of angular clouds riding the blue sky. I had lost a head and gained a world.
Not very helpful on a peak oil site, or even relevant on a thread about religion, but it seems to say something important (to me at least) about that undefinable thing that often gets referred to as "spirituality".
"If we don't change our direction, we are likely to wind up where we are headed" (Chinese Proverb)
Aurora

Post by Aurora »

On Christmas Day, Channel 4 presented a program called 'The Hidden Story Of Jesus' by Oxford theologian Dr. Robert Beckford.

The documentary is now available on Google and is well worth watching.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=0
As Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus, theologian Robert Beckford investigates remarkable parallels to the Christ story in other faiths, some of them predating Christianity by thousands of years.

The Hindu god, Krishna, was conceived by a virgin and his birth was attended by angels, wise men and shepherds. Buddha was also the result of a miraculous birth, and was visited by wise men bearing gifts. He too began his ministry at about 30 years old and performed such miracles as walking on water and feeding 500.

Some people in India believe that Jesus did not die on the cross but escaped from Roman Palestine and ended up in Kashmir. There, they say, he continued to preach, had a wife and child, and later died and was buried.

Jesus was, of course, born a Jew, and Christians believe he is the Messiah prophesied in the Torah ? the Old Testament, which is the holy scripture of the Jews. Meanwhile Muslims revere Jesus as a prophet but do not believe he died on the cross; instead, according to Islam, God saved him and took him up to heaven, and he will return and be buried next to Muhammed.

In this Channel 4 Christmas Day programme, Robert Beckford attempts to unravel the mystery of why there are so many versions of the Christ story across the world and asks which is the real one, and where this leaves the Christian story and his own belief in Jesus.
User avatar
isenhand
Posts: 1296
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by isenhand »

goslow wrote:
Christians as far as I aware (and I am not a theologian!) don't equate soul with mind (hence mind, body, spirit).
Mind and soul are normal equivalent to one another. This mind/soul, sprit and body model of the human being dates back as far as we know to the Stone Age. It?s a very simple model based on observations. We can see people have bodies. Se experience people as having different personalities, a will etc. so we call that soul or mind. Then we observer breath entering people?s bodies when they are born and leaving when they dies (breath = sprit).

Now, of course, we know this model as an over simplification and in error.


.ui
The only future we have is the one we make!

Technocracy:
http://en.technocracynet.eu

http://www.lulu.com/technocracy

http://www.technocracy.tk/
Post Reply