Peak Religion

[Aurora]

Personally I have a very strong religious side. I admire those who eschew consumerism for a life devoted to kindness, compassion and self-understanding.

Tess, you don't need religion to find those qualities within yourself.

[isenhand]

Surely true spirituality is the pursuit of the truth?

No, truth is a relative concept to start with and spirituality is about what ever feels good.

.ui

No, I would disagree - that is your own view. If you are right that truth is a relative concept, then an absolute truth is allowable. Relativity itself, as a concept, must have something to be relative to. Without absoluteness, what is the meaning of relativity?

I'm sure being nailed to a tree doesn't feel especially good, but there are quite a few examples in history where people have ascribed a spiritual meaning to it.

The truth is quite often not pretty. Spirituality is the pursuit of the truth despite this. Materialism is about whatever feels good.

Religion has to do with the way you do things and spirituality has to do with how you feel a about things.

You don?t need an absolute for things to be relative. You just need an arbitrary point to refer to. Something is relative to something else but that something else is relative to the first thing, it just depends on what you take as your point of reference.


.ui

[goslow]

I am not a Roman Catholic, for sure there have been quite a lot of problems with that church over the centuries! (and the rest of them...) The Catholic church is quite reformed now, and as far as I know is not losing its attendence, but the issue is monks, nuns and priests. I except the celibacy thing (only instigated in the 10th century for priests) is putting folk off that particular ministry.

On other comments: For me too, religion is certainly about seeking spritual truth, but as a Christian I would make a distinction between religion, which is a belief system, set of rituals etc, and the relationship with God stuff which makes Christianity really distinctive compared with most other religions.

I would say the Christian faith is certainly not spent and will certainly survive the coming crisis as it has all previous others (black death etc). But I would say that, since I believe it to be true, and believe its maintained by a real God. That is, if for some reason one part of the church goes wrong or gets shut down, then someone else, somewhere, will discover the "real deal".

[RevdTess]

Personally I have a very strong religious side. I admire those who eschew consumerism for a life devoted to kindness, compassion and self-understanding.

Tess, you don't need religion to find those qualities within yourself.

Can find them quite often, and then not find them quite often. Practice would help, but most of my practice is in being an evil capitalist.

[RenewableCandy]

FWIW the Bishop of Liverpool is encouraging people to cut their Carbon for Lent!

[Andy Hunt]

I would say the Christian faith is certainly not spent and will certainly survive the coming crisis as it has all previous others (black death etc). But I would say that, since I believe it to be true, and believe its maintained by a real God. That is, if for some reason one part of the church goes wrong or gets shut down, then someone else, somewhere, will discover the "real deal".

Some would say that the coming 'reformation' of humanity's mode of existence is foreseen and planned by the Creator. Humans are the harvest of the Earth, and fossil fuels have been our fertiliser. And the good seed will grow into a technological species which exists in harmony with nature . . .

. . . a theological doctrine which could be entirely analogous to natural selection and Darwin's evolutionary theory - survival of the fittest. In the end, nature will select those who can live as a part of the natural order. All others will be 'discontinued'.

I for one don't see any contradiction here.

[Aurora]

Try Humanism - it works for me.

The Humanist Manifesto III, a successor to the Humanist Manifesto of 1933

Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without supernaturalism, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity.

The lifestance of Humanism?guided by reason, inspired by compassion, and informed by experience?encourages us to live life well and fully. It evolved through the ages and continues to develop through the efforts of thoughtful people who recognize that values and ideals, however carefully wrought, are subject to change as our knowledge and understandings advance.

This document is part of an ongoing effort to manifest in clear and positive terms the conceptual boundaries of Humanism, not what we must believe but a consensus of what we do believe. It is in this sense that we affirm the following:

Knowledge of the world is derived by observation, experimentation, and rational analysis. Humanists find that science is the best method for determining this knowledge as well as for solving problems and developing beneficial technologies. We also recognize the value of new departures in thought, the arts, and inner experience?each subject to analysis by critical intelligence.

Humans are an integral part of nature, the result of unguided evolutionary change. Humanists recognize nature as self-existing. We accept our life as all and enough, distinguishing things as they are from things as we might wish or imagine them to be. We welcome the challenges of the future, and are drawn to and undaunted by the yet to be known.

Ethical values are derived from human need and interest as tested by experience. Humanists ground values in human welfare shaped by human circumstances, interests, and concerns and extended to the global ecosystem and beyond. We are committed to treating each person as having inherent worth and dignity, and to making informed choices in a context of freedom consonant with responsibility.

Life?s fulfillment emerges from individual participation in the service of humane ideals. We aim for our fullest possible development and animate our lives with a deep sense of purpose, finding wonder and awe in the joys and beauties of human existence, its challenges and tragedies, and even in the inevitability and finality of death. Humanists rely on the rich heritage of human culture and the lifestance of Humanism to provide comfort in times of want and encouragement in times of plenty.

Humans are social by nature and find meaning in relationships. Humanists long for and strive toward a world of mutual care and concern, free of cruelty and its consequences, where differences are resolved cooperatively without resorting to violence. The joining of individuality with interdependence enriches our lives, encourages us to enrich the lives of others, and inspires hope of attaining peace, justice, and opportunity for all.

Working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness. Progressive cultures have worked to free humanity from the brutalities of mere survival and to reduce suffering, improve society, and develop global community. We seek to minimize the inequities of circumstance and ability, and we support a just distribution of nature?s resources and the fruits of human effort so that as many as possible can enjoy a good life.

Humanists are concerned for the well being of all, are committed to diversity, and respect those of differing yet humane views. We work to uphold the equal enjoyment of human rights and civil liberties in an open, secular society and maintain it is a civic duty to participate in the democratic process and a planetary duty to protect nature?s integrity, diversity, and beauty in a secure, sustainable manner.

Thus engaged in the flow of life, we aspire to this vision with the informed conviction that humanity has the ability to progress toward its highest ideals. The responsibility for our lives and the kind of world in which we live is ours and ours alone.

[goslow]

[quote="Aurora"]Try Humanism - it works for me.

Hey I think most religious people would agree with much of the practical stuff in the humanist manifesto, just the metaphysical aspects would be disagreed with. Humanists base their worldview on various articles of faith just as anyone else.

I expect the churches and similar faith-based communities will be helpful in transition to the new economy (cooperation, community building etc). I see quite a few Christian folks involved in Transition Towns.

[Eternal Sunshine]

I see the rise of a new value system which puts the Earth at the centre of existence, and a new techno-spirituality centred around biomimicry and the union of the natural and the technological.

Hey Andy - are you going to start this new religion then. If you made yourself head you would get off paying Council Tax (or was that poll tax... I forget)?

Seriously though, I don't see Christianity in our long term future. Chrisitianity places humans as "stewards" of this world, and in my opinion this has been a major problem, leading to us abusing the planet. As others on this post have said, I think hardship will put us back in touch with the earth, and the development of a belief system that supports this.

I may be wrong though - when I spoke to Patrick Cleary who is involved in setting up Transition Wirral he said the biggest turnouts at meetings preceding their Transition bid had been at Churches, with much lower numbers for "green" type groups.

[snow hope]

I think Paganism will return with a bang.

I have already noticed spiritualism / spirituality is increasing.

I have big problems with faith - basically I can't subscribe to it / don't understand it......

I have always been Agnostic, but starting to get an interest in Spirituality, although low down on the learning curve.

[EmptyBee]

Scary topic to go for after our back-slapping self-congratulation about the lack of antagonistic posts on our board

Still, the thread has started out nice enough...

Personally I have a very strong religious side. I admire those who eschew consumerism for a life devoted to kindness, compassion and self-understanding. For a few years I've been quite drawn to a monastic type lifestyle, though in the Buddhist rather than Christian milieu.

I've had an interest in Buddhism too for a while, and Buddhism in its essentials is a practice (dharma) that requires no dogmatic beliefs, while answering the most important (to my mind) philosophical question: how should I live?

I've never really identified myself as a humanist perhaps because it just strikes me as a bit too wooly in its prescriptions. It strikes me (given Aurora's manifesto) to be essentially utilitarianism.

Anyway, I think the religion of consumerism is entering the era of the shopocalypse, and that's going to entail a lot of anguish. Any set of beliefs and practices that can help us face our future with equanimity and compassion has got to help.

[sentiententity]

Surely true spirituality is the pursuit of the truth?

No, that's Science. Spirituality is a side effect of being an animal intelligent enough to ask questions like "why do I exist?". A combination of conciousness, intelligence and self-awareness creates the illusion that "there must be something else out there".

Humanists base their worldview on various articles of faith just as anyone else

No we don't. Humanists base their worldview on evidence and reason. There's no evidence for one or more gods, in the same way there's no evidence for the Tooth Fairy or Father Christmas, so we don't create any and incorporate them into our worldview.

I think people are right about an increase in religion in the coming years though-we are already seeing it. The effects are/will be predictably bad. Just look at the Creationist Idiocy contest going on in America at the moment, or the expansion of religious schools, even creationist ones, now infesting the UK, or the numerous religiously-motivated mass murders of the last few years.

s.

[Andy Hunt]

the shopocalypse

Aaaagh! No more 'retail therapy' . . .

[Andy Hunt]

Surely true spirituality is the pursuit of the truth?

No, that's Science.

No, science is the pursuit of a model which best describes the physical universe.

Spirituality is the pursuit of the truth about human existence. So whilst there may be no scientific model to describe it, it seems nonetheless true to say for example that love exists in the world, as does hate, and that the roots of hatred are a sense of separation from others, whereas the roots of love are a sense of identity with others.

It may be possible to explain love and hate scientifically in terms of biochemical brain processes, but in a way that's irrelevant because the salient facts are known and we can act on those without knowing the scientific model behind them.

[sentiententity]

science is the pursuit of a model which best describes the physical universe

That is, accurately describes reality, external to ourselves - surely, the pursuit of truth.

Apart from the physical universe, what other universes are you aware of? If they are not physical, how do you detect their existence?

Spirituality is the pursuit of the truth about human existence

I don't understand what you mean by this. "The truth about human existence"? Do you mean its purpose? Or the question of whether we exist or not? Or how we exist? Or something else?

I think you are using the word spirituality differently from how most people use it. Surely it's normally taken to refer to a level of self-aware existence different from the mind and the physical body, and permitting communication with a deity, if one exists? Questions about the relevance and truth of, to use your examples of love and hate, or morality more generally I suppose, come under philosophy.

Love and hate are emotions, or feelings if you like. And there is quite a bit of, for example, evolutionary biology that speaks to this and describes them in terms of their utility in nature, as well as brain scan analysis at the level of the brain and biochemistry at the level of the individual nerve cells.

I love my wife. The fact that I am aware that the love is generated by physical processes going on in my brain does not devalue that love. It is not necessary to invoke anything for which there is no evidence, such as a god or a spiritual realm independent of physical reality for the love to exist and be meaningful.

s.