And this is just the beginning.

RevdTess · Post by **RevdTess** » 19 Sep 2005, 00:27

snow hope wrote:You sound like a perfectionist Tess?

The trouble with us perfectionists is that unless things are as we think they ought to be, we get upset. Now some of us can accept that situation and go on, but some, like you Tess continue to be upset.

Oh, I can accept it. There is no such thing as an "ought to be". Things 'are'. 'Ought to be' is all made up.

I am about as far from a believer in ought-to-be as it is possible to get. I am actually hurt to be included in that category of souls who 'continue to be upset'. This is the greatest insult to my spiritual pride

I am not one of those who believes in an absolute sense of justice and injustice and walks around full of bitterness that the universe is not acting fairly in my or others' lives. Quite the contrary. I feel no bitterness at all. I am occasionally angry, sometimes at my parents, sometimes at society, but this is an autonomic reaction to memories of the past and dreams of the future. It has no reality beyond the moment of experience.

Am I perfectionist? Yes and no. 'Yes', I have a tendency to see inefficiencies that others do not, and find them hard to ignore. 'No', because I realise that imperfection does not exist except in my mind.

But since everything I perceive exists through my mind, the imperfection is as real as anything can be. Therefore I may as well allow the anger to move me rather than sit here in peace.

In any case, underneath the anger and frustration, peace continues.

There is no need to try and fix me. Accept me and move on, as you recommend I do for the circumstances that annoy me.

Though I appreciate the attention. I'm proud like that.

RevdTess · Post by **RevdTess** » 19 Sep 2005, 00:32

snow hope wrote:I have let my wife and three boys know about PO. This is not an easy thing to do as I don't want to take hope, joy and expectation away from my boys.

I think you're very wise to have that sort of conversation with your sons. Not because they need to be prepared, but because it's important to realise that civilisation is not something that can or must be taken for granted, but which must be chosen by each generation for themselves.

isenhand · Post by **isenhand** » 19 Sep 2005, 06:25

<< I have let my wife and three boys know about PO. This is not an easy thing to do as I don't want to take hope, joy and expectation away from my boys.>>

Does that mean you have no joy, hope or expectations? I think it better to face up to reality than live in delusion. Also, rather than see PO as something negative I would see it as a opportunity. It gives us an opportunity to think about what we are doing and to think about what sort of future we want. Maybe times are going to be hard but you can find hope and expectation and maybe even joy in working for a better future in a post PO world.

snow hope · Post by **snow hope** » 19 Sep 2005, 09:01

Tess said, "This is the greatest insult to my spiritual pride"

Whoops, no disrespect meant......

(takes mental note, if in doubt about a post then don't post!)

Isanhand said, "Does that mean you have no joy, hope or expectations?"

Well in reality, not a lot! The idea of going from where we are now, with all our luxuries, mod-cons, easy way of life, abundant cheap fuel, etc, etc. To a life that may be so bad, that there is a significant die-off. A life where we may have difficulty getting enough food, water, heat and even shelter (if we can't pay our mortgages, due to becoming unemployed when our business' crash).

Yeah, I sure don't feel to much joy, hope or expectations. Of course my sons (all our children) will fear it even worse than me/us - one has even said, what will be the point of living, we might as well just die! Now, I don't really think he meant it but.......

I have no desire to see the future I perceive unfold. It is very, very scary. I think we underestimate how horrible things could become and how different and unpleaseant, life in 10 or 20 years might be. My "hope" is that I/we have got it all completely wrong!!

I am unable yet to be optimistic, as some are, about the future.

RevdTess · Post by **RevdTess** » 19 Sep 2005, 09:11

snow hope wrote:Tess said, "This is the greatest insult to my spiritual pride"

Whoops, no disrespect meant...... (takes mental note, if in doubt about a post then don't post!)

Heh, no worries. I'm just embarrassed is all. Pride hurt. It's probably a good thing.

isenhand · Post by **isenhand** » 19 Sep 2005, 09:11

As you may have noticed I think we make our own future. We do so through action and inaction. The picture you paint I would say is a possibility but not a certainty. Weather or not we end up in such a future depends on what we do and don?t do. That is why I am so keen on this building of future communities. I see that we have the potential and possibility to build a better future than the own you paint.

rs · Post by rs » 19 Sep 2005, 09:21

I very much share the same fears as you Snow Hope. I liken it to being in a car and having the knowledge that at some point along the journey we are going to have a crash. The only things I don't know are when it will happen and how bad it will be. But it WILL happen.

It's sometimes very hard to continue with life in the same manner as before and therefore enjoy that ignorant bliss many of our fellow people are in.

I think it is the right thing to do to tell your children about PO. I also see it as an opportunity to help them become aware of the world around them and the impact of our actions. Even if PO doesn't happen in the way we fear, at least they will hopefully have respect for the environment etc..

snow hope · Post by **snow hope** » 19 Sep 2005, 09:25

Fair enough Isenhand and I admire you for trying. Thank goodness we have people like you.

But I just don't see it happening - all I can see is Mad-Max scenarios.....

As rhubarb said in another thread, we are a massive ship and the chance of getting it to turn are just about negligable imo at the moment. We have to be realistic about this.

Of course something might change sometime to get people to realise the ship has to be turned, but by then I am pretty sure it will be too late. I think it is too late even now

RevdTess · Post by **RevdTess** » 19 Sep 2005, 09:33

snow hope wrote:I am unable yet to be optimistic, as some are, about the future.

I suppose it depends on what you see as 'good' and 'bad' in the future. There is a lot of potential for things I find attractive, such as localisation, stronger communities, living closer to the land etc. Along with this goes a lot of potential downside such as food shortage, weakened medical infrastructure, general hardship, violence and cruelty. Personally, I'm not sure what to hope for. And a lot of us probably won't see it anyway.

isenhand · Post by **isenhand** » 19 Sep 2005, 09:33

I quite agree with the ship metaphor. I think companies will pursue their profits to the very end, governments won?t do much because they are too much part of the system (GovCorp) etc.. But I do think we can rebuild the ship from the bottom up and head it in a different direction. I don?t know, but something like forming ?future clubs? would be a start. Buying land and starting to grow our own food local. Networking these groups together as a skeletal frame work. Then, if and when things get bad these groups could start to form communities with a network of communities in place. I could see this as something that can go beyond nations and be linked together across the world.

I don?t see this as easy nor do I expect to see our current life style being maintained but for a start it would mitigate the worse and then it would for a foundation for a better society of the future where life style could well be better.

MacG · Post by **MacG** » 19 Sep 2005, 10:35

isenhand wrote: I don?t know, but something like forming ?future clubs? would be a start. Buying land and starting to grow our own food local. Networking these groups together as a skeletal frame work. Then, if and when things get bad these groups could start to form communities with a network of communities in place. I could see this as something that can go beyond nations and be linked together across the world.

I'm supporting this concept. There are seeds of thought to make something in connection with retirement savings to finance the thing. There is only one area where I disagree, and that is about abolishing money. I see money -in the form of interest free mutual credit- as THE information system to use to form these networks.

isenhand · Post by **isenhand** » 19 Sep 2005, 10:49

Well, there is plenty of room for disagreement

Actually, I would see that there are some points that must be agreed on in a network of communities but I think they should be as minimum as possible. Money is not one of them.

However, on the subject of money I think an energy credit scheme is the best one but I also see that it needs a lot more work to work out the whole concept (such a simulations etc.). That, I hope, will either show it to be a good solution or not and if it is a good solution it should be convincing enough to want to be adopted. Personal, my main reason for it is that it drives the system to minimise energy which is what everything else is built on. Till then I would see some local currency as a good solution for building local communities. I think a time base currency is the best as it has some reflection of what is actually going on with no subjective value to what things should cost.

Now, all we nee to do is to make it happen!

beev · Post by **beev** » 19 Sep 2005, 12:23

isenhand wrote:if and when things get bad these groups could start to form communities with a network of communities in place. I could see this as something that can go beyond nations and be linked together across the world.

This is already happening. People are doing it. Their motivation is not necessarily PO; it is all sorts of things, but they are doing it anyway. They do it because they believe in taking action to make a better world. Sometimes they even get help from GOVernment and CORPorations.

GOVernment frequently supplies money in the form of grants to buy land and make other inverstments in the community project. CORPorations help in that they provide loans for land purchase, they supply technology and provide networking infrastructure.

I would love to know how you are going to create your network of communities without money and without "GovCorp".

snow hope · Post by **snow hope** » 19 Sep 2005, 12:26

I see you are in Sweden Isenhand - is that where you are hoping to create a community?

isenhand · Post by **isenhand** » 19 Sep 2005, 12:29

beev wrote:This is already happening. People are doing it.

Yeap, you have something moving along this sort of line. Which is a good step in the right direction but it?s only the beginning

beev wrote:I would love to know how you are going to create your network of communities without money and without "GovCorp".

You don?t, you do it with money and within the current system.