Population control 'needs debate'

[PaulS]

I am truly amazed how emotive this discussion has got, even at a forum like this.

Overpopulation is simply one of the problems that world-wide civilisation is facing, just like PO, water shortage, pollution, CC, drug resistant diseases, etc , etc. Except that in my view overpopulation is the root cause of many of the other crises we are struggling with. Ignoring overpopulation means that we are trying to deal with symptoms instead of dealing with root causes, which is of course in the long term, the right thing to do and absolutely necessary for the success of all the other strategies.

Not that I hold my breath for the success of any of them! Hence my motto

[MisterE]

F*ck it!

I want no part of such "discussions"!

I prefer "the natural way" over anything I've seen designed by people this far. Starvation, war and diseases are more attractive than any cleverly designed scheme for "population control". ANY scheme designed by people will be hacked by even more clever people, and as I stated in another thread, I'm sick and tired of all those clever social hacks. Prefer to design permaculture schemes trying to trick nature over designing social hacks trying to trick other people.

AMEN TO THAT my sentiments exactly, people who consider such things should first get very acquainted with how the world actually runs, how much land there is, how resources can be used far better and not squandered. The number one killer of mankind, the top of the crop is government anyone fancy doing the numbers. If you want to take a closer look into the future of how the world will deal with this issue, then check out our model that we are running in one of our three power states ie China, people killed, genes changed, people havested for organs whilst alive - fact - FACT!

So I'm to have less children, whilst the rich have more. I'm not to make a family to be successful whilst the rich have mafia style corporation family. I'm not to have children so despite filling the country with useless immigrants that we do not need that through no fault of their own take a place of a countryman. But dont worry, I'm pretty sure climate carbon tax will soon be brought in to pay for programs to activate police states, to control and reduce population, destroy what little freedom we have, destroy family values and life, and turn what is left of the population into worker ants - but look on the brightside PO will no longer exist there will be plenty for the chosen few left, funny how that works out isnt it ie resources and people and profit. Powers to be = lower the population by any means, resources can maintain this way of capitalistic life in dense city work camps, whilst the rich live in luxury on the outskirts with all the land its the modern middle ages.

I'll take my chances and lets keep breeding as normal

[Miss Madam]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkHE0KjPzMQ

If you get the chance watch the entire film and think about the fact that the worlds smartest people are having children later or never , while those idiot Cornucopians and mighty pesky religious folk are breeding like rabbits.

It is worrying isn't it, in the UK we seem to be self-selecting for stupidity and a non-existant work ethic - just look at the Jeremy Kyle show!.... the people I wish were having kids - aren't through lack of money, the lack of starter homes, still paying for their education etc

[littlejimmy]

Surely this is just a product of modern industrial society. Simply put: Growth in population means growth in economy, and society needs the robotic drones more than it needs people who think for themselves and are therefore dangerous.

[SunnyJim]

Look at the shit that came down on the diggers. That's the only way to be free.

How about we start a race?

In lane one, we have the government (a front for big business and the moneyed). They are racing to bring in a police state with ever greater controls, so that they can maintain control during the energy descent.

In lane two, we have the people desparately trying to be free of the shackles of mortgages, debt, taxes and their dependence on Tesco and Esso.

Goverment survive on the back of taxes. Banks survive on loans.

The way to break the system would be for everyone in the UK to simultaneously stop paying their mortgages and debts on the same day. That would break the banks. On that same day the people would have to start using local money instead of pounds. No tax payable. That would break the government.

That isn't going to happen though is it? I mean what lies beyond that? Anarchy? How would that turn out? Fear of the unknown would prevent it ever happening.

So what are the alternatives? Re-localise and work within the current system. Reduce debts as quickly as possible. Create local currencies that avoid tax payments, or use LET's schemes. Create communities that help people practically rather than relying on borrowing. This way we keep teh goverment weak, and keep a sensible balance between state control and local people power.

[clv101]

your all a bunch of imperialists , what right have you to tell other cultures to change , mind your own business and protect your own country if your worried about overpopulation .

Why draw a line around "cultures" or the "country". Why not just accept that we are all people, living on the Earth and collectively we have a problem that needs addressing.

I prefer "the natural way" over anything I've seen designed by people this far. Starvation, war and diseases are more attractive than any cleverly designed scheme for "population control".

And they are the obvious outcome of our current predicament. Those talking about ?artificial? population control methods are really suggesting alternative ways of achieving the same population outcomes without as much of the obvious hardship associated with ?starvation, war and diseases?. Are there any examples where this has worked? What about China and Iran where the breaks were put on rapid population expansion? Which would have been the greater evil ? what actually did happen in China and Iran or what would have been the result of unchecked population expansion until the ?starvation, war and diseases? kicked in?

It is worrying isn't it, in the UK we seem to be self-selecting for stupidity and a non-existent work ethic - just look at the Jeremy Kyle show!.... the people I wish were having kids - aren't through lack of money, the lack of starter homes, still paying for their education etc

That does seem to be the case doesn?t it. Hardly encouraging.

[Bandidoz]

Are there any examples where this has worked?

Yes - the use of Depo-Provera in Rhodesia. Enforced sterilisation after the second child I've been told.

[MisterE]

Are there any examples where this has worked?

Yes - the use of Depo-Provera in Rhodesia. Enforced sterilisation after the second child I've been told.

Worked as in how, hte west pays for all of this in order not to stop famine, war or strive but to ensure they stay undeveloped. Also clv101 becasue of china's actions there are now something like 30 million more men than women - not to mention the odd few mil females thrown onto the streets, used for research, organ harvesting and killed at birth becasue men are the desired choice of child. Its also worth noting they brought this in under "your fined if you have more kids" that has now changed to imprisoned and tortured. We got to be really clear what population control means - its a cull of the masses, shorten lifespans, sterilisation by force etc etc and it certainly wont effect the higher classes. Eugenics is such a bad thing I cant begin to express what the powers to be will do to us, especially as its happening around the world namely china and its praised to the hilt - plus we now have all these bloody so called sciences which are basically forms of crypto-eugenics. Yes this thread is right, people should be able to get along, have less borders, treat the place as one world, and if need be control population as the ultimate last resort from sheer distruction - sadly those in power now are going to use the save the planet issue and resources issue to bring in laws that no-one in their right mind would want. I hope I'm well and truely dead before all of that kicks in - it would make the nazis look like a joke - I can really see the people of the first world begging these clowns to do to us what the Nazi's couldnt do by force and quite frankly I think its very scary!

[clv101]

Are there any examples where this has worked?

Also clv101 becasue of china's actions there are now something like 30 million more men than women - not to mention the odd few mil females thrown onto the streets, used for research, organ harvesting and killed at birth becasue men are the desired choice of child. Its also worth noting they brought this in under "your fined if you have more kids" that has now changed to imprisoned and tortured.

Calm down, I'm not saying China's policy is a "good thing". I'm just saying that it is an example of a pro-active population policy. I don't disagree with any of those negative aspects you highlight.

My questions is how the magnitude of these negative aspects caused by the policy compare with the negative aspects of ?starvation, war and diseases? which are the natural way.

[Bandidoz]

For me it's a question of what's the lesser of two evils, in comparison, Smith beats Mugabe hands-down.

I would personally call for a 1-child rule across-the-board for 100 years; anything else is straying in the direction of Eugenics (selective breeding causes a reduction in biodiversity). The problem in China is that sterilisation wasn't administered, thus allowing people to abandon their babies and "have another go". Still, had they not introduced the rule, I'd bet they'd be in a far worse position now. Don't forget there was a lot of starvation in China following the "great leap forward" in the 1950s.

Anyway, a global 1-child rule is not going to happen, so the natural order of events will take hold. All the people who'd complain about the "monstrosity" of sterilisation will instead be complaining about the suffering of the poor and how it's down to "bad distribution" of food or lack of aid/education etc etc.

[MisterE]

muwhahahhaaaaaa no no I get your point and I know you dont think the chinese policy is a good thing. I totally agree with you and when you compare it too negative aspects of ?starvation, war and diseases? which are as you say the natural way, then we can consider such an issue. What is niggling me at the moment is I think that all of those things are already being used as forms of population control that there is nothing natural about it, they are tools used by governments to lower the population and considering that the number 1 human killer to date is government then so far their not doing a bad job and right under our noses.

You, me and load of others in a community in the wild, would follow natural selection and the weak, unlucky, and ill would probably die off - resources would be of the utmost importance and action would be needed, if not taken then nature will sort it out and the whole community could be lost - to expand that to the world again could stand as an argument - but would you want these lunatics in charge of that - I know I dont and what is worst I think they will be pushing strongly for this over the next 3yrs along with a carbon tax, toll roads and intrusive surveillance. What gets me is I know this is going to be all over the news soon along with major sacrifices and increased tax to save the world to pave the way for these control freaks and the people will buy it all hook line and sinker.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 3600562261 (second half all on population control was interesting and make of it what you will)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

[MacG]

Those talking about ?artificial? population control methods are really suggesting alternative ways of achieving the same population outcomes without as much of the obvious hardship associated with ?starvation, war and diseases?. Are there any examples where this has worked? What about China and Iran where the breaks were put on rapid population expansion? Which would have been the greater evil ? what actually did happen in China and Iran or what would have been the result of unchecked population expansion until the ?starvation, war and diseases? kicked in?

You see, in this particular question I'm a bit emotional and wont listen to "reason". To anyone who suggest "population control" in any form, I say: "After you, sir".

[rushdy]

I agree with the sentiment that nature will solve the problem one way or another. But right now our problem is that we are cheating nature. All number of benefits, credits, and aid are helping people have children who otherwise would find it hard to shoulder the cost. Population control can act positively and negatively, and right now helping anyone have children is an incentive to increase population. Nature is nature after all.