Man Made Global Warming - Fact or Fiction?
Moderator: Peak Moderation
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21st_century_caveman
- Posts: 208
- Joined: 23 May 2007, 20:43
- Location: Still on this feckin island
I think kenneal felt that it wasn't worth the effort simply because debating against climate change skeptics is like debating with a young earth creationist, they will always have some argument up their sleeve no matter what the science says.
Humans always do the most intelligent thing after every stupid alternative has failed. - R. Buckminster Fuller
If you stare too long into the abyss, the abyss will stare back into you. - Friedrich Nietzche
If you stare too long into the abyss, the abyss will stare back into you. - Friedrich Nietzche
Thanks for the links skeptic.skeptik wrote: "ice-moons of Jupiter are melting at an unprecedented rate.".. touch of hyperbole there, methinks, as we haven't had the technology to do this stuff for very long. Who knows what is 'unprecedented'? Extraterrestrial climate change is a reality though, which shouldn't be surprising. Climate changes, alway has , always will no matter where you are.
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/sp ... OE=TECISVA
http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/199805 ... _sys.shtml
http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2007/2 ... 8764.shtml
http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index ... tune-news/
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2002/pluto.html
From the last link, about Pluto:
As for the other planets, I'm not sure how safe any connection to Earth's global warming is, as each of the atmospheres in question is unique and will react in different ways to different inputs from the sun. We have no idea if the observations from them are due to solar activity, volcanic activity and, regarding Jupiter's moons, gravitational forces between the gas giant and the sun. To turn around and categorically state that it's all due to solar activity is pushing things a bit far, particularly when correlated to the solar constant on the more distant planets. There's just too much uncertainly and, the main thing I gathered from the articles was: "We need to do more research before we can confirm anything."Jay Pasachoff, an astronomy professor at Williams College, said that Pluto's global warming was "likely not connected with that of the Earth. The major way they could be connected is if the warming was caused by a large increase in sunlight. But the solar constant--the amount of sunlight received each second--is carefully monitored by spacecraft, and we know the sun's output is much too steady to be changing the temperature of Pluto."
As you say, climate change happens. The problem isn't with the changing climate, but how fast the climate is changing.
Science should always be questioned and never ever EVER taken on face value that if nothing else is the main ethics in science!21st_century_caveman wrote:I think kenneal felt that it wasn't worth the effort simply because debating against climate change skeptics is like debating with a young earth creationist, they will always have some argument up their sleeve no matter what the science says.
Also I for one am getting a lot out of this thread and learning new info and I'm a skeptic. I think it is valid to consider what is happening on other planets, the one question I would ask if other planets ice is melting would be is that due to our sun or cosmic rays? I'm still very skeptical of man made global warming, but I'm now in more of a grey area than a black or white one ie my ears are open and its one hell of a subject.
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21st_century_caveman
- Posts: 208
- Joined: 23 May 2007, 20:43
- Location: Still on this feckin island
I agree totally, science should question its self and does, its probably the best method of veiwing the world with respect to self criticism (peer review etc) that we have.
However it is by no means perfect, they say it takes one generation of scientists to fully change belief in a discredited theory, in other areas of human thinking (politics for example) it takes a hell of a lot longer.
I still remain agnostic about global warming to an extent, its just i recently went to a very persuasive lecture.
Also, as i said above, the atmosphere is a complex system so small changes to it can have massive consequences, which makes AGW quite likely.
However it is by no means perfect, they say it takes one generation of scientists to fully change belief in a discredited theory, in other areas of human thinking (politics for example) it takes a hell of a lot longer.
I still remain agnostic about global warming to an extent, its just i recently went to a very persuasive lecture.
Also, as i said above, the atmosphere is a complex system so small changes to it can have massive consequences, which makes AGW quite likely.
Humans always do the most intelligent thing after every stupid alternative has failed. - R. Buckminster Fuller
If you stare too long into the abyss, the abyss will stare back into you. - Friedrich Nietzche
If you stare too long into the abyss, the abyss will stare back into you. - Friedrich Nietzche
I totally agree with you 100%. My problem with science is this. I left school at 15 and trained to be a bricklayer. It took me 4 years of a real apprenticeship on shit money and everyone more or less calling you a thicky bricky. I was lucky to train with someone who was awesome at the trade, but treated me very harsh. At the end of it I was prepared for life, and I could build anything. It was a real schooling. Today 20yrs on, I really 110% will take on any project. I?ve worked on some of the biggest jobs in the UK and abroad. I run crews and we do the work ? we don?t talk the job from an office, we manage it and do the work on the site. It?s a job I?m proud of and feels like you actually do something in life.
In my spare time I popped back to Uni and done a degree in psychology, I done a PHD in Psyche and I?ve spoke at a conference, and reg-ed with BPS. I also done an MSc in Human Resources simply because I enjoyed applied psyche mainly occupational psychology. I learnt these simply as a backup ready for the time when my body cant handle the construction life no longer. Which seems to be getting closer and closer. I worked in the field for a while and worked in academics but went back to construction because I love the ?crack? and the money is amazing at the moment.
There are many things that are corrupt within construction form money laundering, to back handers with government officials. But the work is truthful, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, the structure either stands or fails in time. Yet my time in academics showed me the opposite. I saw so much research that often was simply made up. I even witnessed researchers make up data, seen many of them bend the truth and bounce papers back n forth until they worked. I saw research that was being conducted with the person finding a vested interest in finding a certain conclusion. It?s incredibly corrupt and political. I agree my subjects are not the best, I would have loved to study physics but my choices were work based.
The point is it?s a real skill finding and reading ?honest? & ?real? research. Science has in my opinion become unbelievably corrupt. I graduated top of my year twice. Which is not bad for a boy from a poor back ground with nothing to ever back me up, yet I?m not bright or intelligent just hard working and determined. But if I?m honest, those degrees do not come close to my training in construction, they are a joke. I could write forever on how poor I think science has become along with peer review rofl.
Whilst there are good papers out there, I believe they are few and far between, plus good honest and undistorted data is a rarity. But the real killer is if some person conducted a study of how many hypothesis within current research are proved to be significant we?d all be shocked as it would be close enough to state ?all of them?. I just don?t have the faith in science that I used to ? but that is only my experience and I accept that can?t be extrapolated to the whole scientific community.
It does sadden me that my trade ranks so much higher ? because it really should be the other way around. But hey that?s what happens I guess when money becomes more important than education.
Well that?s my rant over on the current state of science lol Glad I?ll be back plastering my porch tomorrow
PS I suppose this is where my questioning topics like man made global warming come from. But when all is said and done you are spot on and science is still the best system we have at the moment - I just think its robustness is getting diluted a tad too much and that cant be a good thing for any of us
In my spare time I popped back to Uni and done a degree in psychology, I done a PHD in Psyche and I?ve spoke at a conference, and reg-ed with BPS. I also done an MSc in Human Resources simply because I enjoyed applied psyche mainly occupational psychology. I learnt these simply as a backup ready for the time when my body cant handle the construction life no longer. Which seems to be getting closer and closer. I worked in the field for a while and worked in academics but went back to construction because I love the ?crack? and the money is amazing at the moment.
There are many things that are corrupt within construction form money laundering, to back handers with government officials. But the work is truthful, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, the structure either stands or fails in time. Yet my time in academics showed me the opposite. I saw so much research that often was simply made up. I even witnessed researchers make up data, seen many of them bend the truth and bounce papers back n forth until they worked. I saw research that was being conducted with the person finding a vested interest in finding a certain conclusion. It?s incredibly corrupt and political. I agree my subjects are not the best, I would have loved to study physics but my choices were work based.
The point is it?s a real skill finding and reading ?honest? & ?real? research. Science has in my opinion become unbelievably corrupt. I graduated top of my year twice. Which is not bad for a boy from a poor back ground with nothing to ever back me up, yet I?m not bright or intelligent just hard working and determined. But if I?m honest, those degrees do not come close to my training in construction, they are a joke. I could write forever on how poor I think science has become along with peer review rofl.
Whilst there are good papers out there, I believe they are few and far between, plus good honest and undistorted data is a rarity. But the real killer is if some person conducted a study of how many hypothesis within current research are proved to be significant we?d all be shocked as it would be close enough to state ?all of them?. I just don?t have the faith in science that I used to ? but that is only my experience and I accept that can?t be extrapolated to the whole scientific community.
It does sadden me that my trade ranks so much higher ? because it really should be the other way around. But hey that?s what happens I guess when money becomes more important than education.
Well that?s my rant over on the current state of science lol Glad I?ll be back plastering my porch tomorrow
PS I suppose this is where my questioning topics like man made global warming come from. But when all is said and done you are spot on and science is still the best system we have at the moment - I just think its robustness is getting diluted a tad too much and that cant be a good thing for any of us
I am an AGW sceptic. My background is scientific, yet I am unconvinced by the arguments and discussions around mankind being responsible for the majority of global warming. I do accept that our footprint upon the planet and our landscape changes are having a small impact on regional climatic changes. But I am sceptical that we are having a global impact, ie I don't think we are contributing to the warming of the planet anything much greater than negligable, ie too small to measure.
I have made the analogy in the past that if I piss into the Atlantic, then I warm it - fact. But it is negligable. That is my view of mankinds impact on our climate.
I read AGW as a proxy for Peak Oil and thus what we need to do curb our impact on catastrophic climate change is reduce fossil fuel usage! Yeah, right on - TPTB are just too scared to come out and say that life as we know it will have to change drastically in the near future because of oil depletion. This is not an acceptable message from our MPs so you will not hear it, until it becomes more acceptable. Simple as that.
I know some people will disagree with my view (and some people agree including some climate scientists), but such is life. If Kenneal feels it is below him to respond then that is his choice. We all make our choices and we all get judged by them.
I have made the analogy in the past that if I piss into the Atlantic, then I warm it - fact. But it is negligable. That is my view of mankinds impact on our climate.
I read AGW as a proxy for Peak Oil and thus what we need to do curb our impact on catastrophic climate change is reduce fossil fuel usage! Yeah, right on - TPTB are just too scared to come out and say that life as we know it will have to change drastically in the near future because of oil depletion. This is not an acceptable message from our MPs so you will not hear it, until it becomes more acceptable. Simple as that.
I know some people will disagree with my view (and some people agree including some climate scientists), but such is life. If Kenneal feels it is below him to respond then that is his choice. We all make our choices and we all get judged by them.
Real money is gold and silver
Just read your post MisterE and I have to say that it is quite shocking that you have seen and report that corruption - very sad indeed. I am trying to encourage my eldest son to go into a trade as I think they are very worthwhile jobs - brick-laying, joinery, plumbing, sparks, plastering, tiling - all critical jobs!
Be proud of what you do - it is very worthwhile as I think you recognise.
Be proud of what you do - it is very worthwhile as I think you recognise.
Real money is gold and silver
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21st_century_caveman
- Posts: 208
- Joined: 23 May 2007, 20:43
- Location: Still on this feckin island
I would state the analogy of some insignificant amino acid type molecules like RNA which may have started self-replicating about 3.5 billion years ago - fact? Tiny neglible effects, now the rest, as they say is history.snow hope wrote: I have made the analogy in the past that if I piss into the Atlantic, then I warm it - fact. But it is negligable. That is my view of mankinds impact on our climate.
Thats my view of mankinds impact on the planet, i.e small insignificant changes can have massive effects.
Humans always do the most intelligent thing after every stupid alternative has failed. - R. Buckminster Fuller
If you stare too long into the abyss, the abyss will stare back into you. - Friedrich Nietzche
If you stare too long into the abyss, the abyss will stare back into you. - Friedrich Nietzche
Well, your experiences are mirrored in the parts of science I've seen. Got a PhD in Chemistry and have been pimping for Big Pharma the last 12 years. Really a bit scary to see the degree of moral and intellectual corruption inside the big companies also.MisterE wrote:I just don?t have the faith in science that I used to ? but that is only my experience and I accept that can?t be extrapolated to the whole scientific community.
And I must say that I'm quite a bit disappointed - just when I thought that we would start to have an open and enlightened discussion about depletion of fossil energy, we get hit by all this chaff about "man-made global warming". And I'm disappointed by all the anger and all the invented analogies by homemade "scientists".
Seems to me that climate change is being promoted as a tool for controlling fossil fuel use in favour of exposing PO as a problem.
As clv101 stated a few weeks ago, PO will see peak carbon output, so why go to all the trouble of marketing CC. Just bring on PO so can save the planet and get on with making the real adjustments to our lives that we will need in the face of oil decline.
Ooops sorry I forgot, there's money to be made in CC and all that carbon trading nonsense and nothing to be made in promoting PO, except for the green industries which oddly the government is doing little to support.
As clv101 stated a few weeks ago, PO will see peak carbon output, so why go to all the trouble of marketing CC. Just bring on PO so can save the planet and get on with making the real adjustments to our lives that we will need in the face of oil decline.
Ooops sorry I forgot, there's money to be made in CC and all that carbon trading nonsense and nothing to be made in promoting PO, except for the green industries which oddly the government is doing little to support.