Are we still in denial?

[RenewableCandy]

Firstly, i was referring to the "we" that people here seem to mean a relationship between two people, me and my OH etc.

Sorry, i'm feeling a bit down today.

Sorry, misunderstanding there! Me and my big gob .

Yeah you do get some PrimaDonnas (both sexes, mind!) in the Eco community, it can be a bit of a pain. The way I look at it is, those of us with an OH/dependents have all these extra people to worry about (for example if maraudin' ever becomes popular), those of you who are unattached might feel lonely FTTT but at least are spared all that responsibility.

Then you get the poor sods on Board whose other 1/2s are still not listening, heck that must be a real pain.

Right, getting towards syberberg's observation (that avator never fails to cheer me up btw), anyone out there know of an historical example of a society that was 'atomised' a la Thatcher but then pulled together in times of adversity? Perhaps the people of the 20's/30's (lots of hedonism going on in those days so I'm told) when they faced war less than 20 years later?

[syberberg]

Maybe Thatcher was right "There is no such thing as society".

As much as I hate the rotten b!tch for what she did to the mining communities of the northeast, I've got to give her some grudging respect for being able to sum up neoliberal economics and Game Theory in one short sentence.

Perhaps what we are seeing is totally understandable: the aggregate behaviour of millions of self-serving individuals intent on survival .. or a good time.

Can we educate ALL these individuals?

Nope. Coercion of some sort will need to be used.

As (somewhat) of an anarchist, I'm opposed to coercion, but in this case I have to agree. Some sort of coercion is deffinately going to have to be used.

What really surprises me is that (in the general short-sightedness, stupidity and greed of it), is why the government hasn't used the VAT system to encourage the population to switch from incandescent light bulbs to CFL's and LED's by removing VAT on the latter and increasing it on the former. The same with energy efficient white goods as well.

(that avator never fails to cheer me up btw)

Andy beat me to The Hitchhiker's Guide. As far as I'm aware, that actually is a genuine WW2 War Dept. sign. I stumbled across it looking for some army surplus stuff and thought: "Perfect, how wonderfully British."

[Erik]

The way I look at it is, those of us with an OH/dependents have all these extra people to worry about (for example if maraudin' ever becomes popular), those of you who are unattached might feel lonely FTTT but at least are spared all that responsibility.

Then you get the poor sods on Board whose other 1/2s are still not listening, heck that must be a real pain.

I sometimes, guiltily, wonder if I'd cope much better with the oncoming SHTF situation if I didn't have a family to protect (from the "marauders" or whatever) and all the responsabilities and restrictions that go with it. But then I wouldn't want to face this period on my own either.

I think the early stages of energy depletion WILL bring people together, and support networks WILL appear almost spontaneously - hitherto loners and couch potatos might suddenly find their lives greatly improved as they become necessarily involved in new creative and interesting groups of people and activities!

But then in the later stages of post-PO society, once enough people realise that the energy descent is one-way, and that times are going to get increasingly harder, forever... that's when the marauding starts.

Whatever happens, it's going to be fascinating! So when those marauding cannibals are bashing down our doors, we should try to remind ourselves that we have in fact been very lucky and rather privileged to have lived now, and to have witnessed this very special period in history!

[Eternal Sunshine]

Whatever happens, it's going to be fascinating! So when those marauding cannibals are bashing down our doors, we should try to remind ourselves that we have in fact been very lucky and rather privileged to have lived now, and to have witnessed this very special period in history!

[Andy Hunt]

< always look on the bright side of life, da da, da da da da da da . . . >

[21st_century_caveman]

OK, my last post might have seemed a bit overly critical of CAT, well it is a really great place, they certainly know how to throw a party up there (went to one at the weekend and it restored my faith a bit), plus a lot of cool people have been attracted to the local area over the years because of CAT.

Now for some more thoughts on PO.
For me PO isn't so much of a problem, its more a meta-problem. The sheer uncertainty of it is overwhelming, i feel the level of uncertainty that it causes in me must be similar to to what the people interned in Guantanamo Bay must be feeling.
This seems to have caused in me a complete lack of direction, loss of motivation and lack of ambition even though i know exactly what i should be doing: preparing for PO. The problem is, to do that i need to earn money which means being a part of a system which is completely immoral, responsible for countless deaths and misery around the world and is also on the verge of collapse because of its own corrupt nature.
There is a serious conflict here because obviously i'm hopelessly dependent on this system and i don't see any way out of it because as i'm constantly reminded by people "you need money to live", so even if i wanted to leave the system, which i do, i can't.
Oh yes, and being single doesn't help matters.

I feel hopelessly adrift in the quantum froth of uncertainty and my head is going under the surface, i feel like the only thing that can save me now is a heroic cavewoman jumping in, dragging me out and reassuring me that everything is OK.

[stumuz]

If our society is so immoral and bad, why don't you move to another country which has better morals amd people?

[21st_century_caveman]

Nice, "you're either with us or against us" and if you dont like us then move to France. Now where have i heard that before?
Unfortunately the whole wage slave... oops capitalist system has infected the whole planet so i'll have to wait for a passing Vogon ship or Arcturan Mega-freighter to get a lift off this planet of death.

[Pippa]

Caveman,

You're not alone. I feel the same. It's pretty crap to wake up one day and find you've been conned and that we're headed in the wrong direction and as far as I am concerned it's pretty pointless thinking of running away, it's the same all over the world anyway, same mess just a different location.

PO preparation isn't easy, probably the best advice is that it's 99% mental, i.e there isn't really alot you can do physically to alter things other than skills etc etc.

I have found myself completely de-motivated work wise (look how much time I've spent here !


Hang in there and try to enjoy today.

[SunnyJim]

OK, my last post might have seemed a bit overly critical of CAT, well it is a really great place, they certainly know how to throw a party up there (went to one at the weekend and it restored my faith a bit), plus a lot of cool people have been attracted to the local area over the years because of CAT.

Now for some more thoughts on PO.
For me PO isn't so much of a problem, its more a meta-problem. The sheer uncertainty of it is overwhelming, i feel the level of uncertainty that it causes in me must be similar to to what the people interned in Guantanamo Bay must be feeling.
This seems to have caused in me a complete lack of direction, loss of motivation and lack of ambition even though i know exactly what i should be doing: preparing for PO. The problem is, to do that i need to earn money which means being a part of a system which is completely immoral, responsible for countless deaths and misery around the world and is also on the verge of collapse because of its own corrupt nature.
There is a serious conflict here because obviously i'm hopelessly dependent on this system and i don't see any way out of it because as i'm constantly reminded by people "you need money to live", so even if i wanted to leave the system, which i do, i can't.
Oh yes, and being single doesn't help matters.

I feel hopelessly adrift in the quantum froth of uncertainty and my head is going under the surface, i feel like the only thing that can save me now is a heroic cavewoman jumping in, dragging me out and reassuring me that everything is OK.

Do you smoke the 'erb? I used to and I spiraled down into where I think you seem to be now. Kick the habbit man. You'll re-find that verve for life. That va-va-voom. Your head will once again poke up above the quantum froth of uncertainty. I can see that there is truth in much of what you say, but how we choose to view that truth has alot to do with state of mind.

[RenewableCandy]

This seems to have caused in me a complete lack of direction, loss of motivation and lack of ambition even though i know exactly what i should be doing: preparing for PO. The problem is, to do that i need to earn money which means being a part of a system which is completely immoral, responsible for countless deaths and misery around the world and is also on the verge of collapse ...

You can draw a line between 'doing business' and 'fully taking part in the current way of doing business' (i.e. interest-based money, costant need for growth etc). The former has been going on since prehistoric times in the form of bartering for goods and services including the use of 'tokens' for money, the latter you could regard as just an overblown and diseased version of the former. Human beings are ingenious and social and will always find ways of teaming up for mutual gain: what's going to change dramatically is the scale on which we do it.

The practical upshot of all this for you is, if you have no (permanent) roof over your head and no stash of food THAT NEEDN'T MATTER because you have skills, which are of course the means of getting the said roof and goodies. Practical skills are going to be much in demand as the fx of peak oil start to bite: people will want things built, repaired, transported, made, grown, installed, etc. Practical skills, unlike food or even houses, can't be nicked, or used up.

All you have to do is keep your head together (same could be said for any of us )

In the meantime there are plenty of ethical businesses for which you could work, this is not a perfect answer but will get you started. Save some of the money, and use the rest for courses in (advancing) some practical skills you'd enjoy doing, in between working: work needn't be full-time. If there's a LETS you can join (and you haven't already) then have a go at offering your skills there. LETS, in the long run, looks like the most promising way of getting off the 'interest-based money' treadmill altogether...

[21st_century_caveman]

Thank you all for the advice and support, i have made some vague preparations both mentally and physically but it never seems enough especially when you see what other people have achieved both on here and the local area around here.
For example when moaning about my lack of preparations one of my house mates/fellow co-op members pointed to the fact that i now live in a housing co-operative.
On the issue of the 'erb, well yes i have been a fairly regular toker but have given up in order to start a new course, its just probably not out of my system yet, also just given up the really evil legal weed tobacco.
For the record i'm not against doing business or trading or whatever you want to call it, as has been pointed out its been going on forever, i just dont like the way the current system is biased against the little man and in favor of powerful elites and the fact if you want to be successful (whatever that means) you have to crap on other people and claw your way up.

Sorry, rant over.

[Vortex]

you have to crap on other people and claw your way up.

Businesses which have this sort of ethos certainly get things done.

"Cuddly" businesses usually crash & burn.

Sad but true.

[snow hope]

It may have been true in the past but I don't agree that it is going into the future. There are plenty of companies that have taken an ethical stance nowadays and have strong morals in terms of the way they do business and conduct themselves.

In fact I would go as far as to say that it won't be long until people start turning away from unethical companies in their droves...... Just a little prediction based on some of the people I know and the way they are starting to talk - the tide is turning I feel.

[Adam1]

you have to crap on other people and claw your way up.

Businesses which have this sort of ethos certainly get things done.

"Cuddly" businesses usually crash & burn.

Sad but true.

Do you have any evidence that comparable non-ethical businesses are more successful than their ethical counterparts?

If crapping on people is the way to get things done, is this how you get things done in your business? Or are you the exception that proves the rule?

I think you might be having one of your 'Realpolitik' moments Vortex.