Monbiot - Reappraisal at Heathrow

[Bozzio]

It's been enlightening watching you spout off as it says far more about your complete lack of mental control and self discipline. The fact that you support the 911 Truth Movement shows you have a remarkable lack of being able o grasp basic physics, metallurgy, have no idea about explosives whatsoever, no knowledge of structural engineering.

FYI, I used to be an architect. I was pretty good but I hated office life; all that politics and boring conversations. I understand physics, mathematics and engineering pretty well having A levels in the first two and two postgraduate qualifications in architecture.

Perhaps you could educate me a little about the issues you have listed above in relation to 9/11? I look forward to your reply but please don't pm me with it. Just as you state that you have much evidence by reputable people regarding climate change, I also have plenty of evidence about 9/11 by reputable people; engineers, architects, pilots etc.

[Bozzio]

So again, I ask what meaningful ACTIONS have you taken towards revealing your version of The Truth?

(Handing out DVDs and posting on websites doesn't count!)

I don't quite understand why handing out DVD's and posting on websites doesn't count but I guess you have to justify your position somehow.

I think I have written a dozen or so letters to various MP's and newspapers. I've demonstrated on several occasions also, locally and in London. My efforts are only a tiny part of the movement but they help.

Incidently I have done the same thing for PO, except the demonstrating bit. I had one letter published in a trade magazine relevant to my profession. I also helped out James a couple of years ago, distributing Powerswitch DVD's for about 3 months before work commitments forced me to stop.

Can I ask what you have done regarding PO if this is such an issue to you? Mind you, I don't see what any of this has got to do with why I am wrong about 9/11.

[Bozzio]

For your information, PO will likely cause us humans to use more coal and doubtless this will not be done in a way that will aid a reduction in CO2.

There aren?t the reserves/productive capacity to substitute the falling CO2 emissions due to peak oil with alternative sources of CO2 emissions. Peak oil correlates pretty closely with peak CO2 emissions in my opinion.

Can you elaborate a bit further? Are you saying that CO2 emissions will begin to drop within the next few years?

[skeptik]

There aren?t the reserves/productive capacity to substitute the falling CO2 emissions due to peak oil with alternative sources of CO2 emissions. Peak oil correlates pretty closely with peak CO2 emissions in my opinion.

Do we have enough data to say that a high effort put into coal mining would not result in a continuing rise in CO2 levels? I thought recent reports indicated that the data on coal reserves were even more unreliable than those for oil.

the chaps at Uppsala agree with you.
http://www.energybulletin.net/29845.html

[clv101]

Do we have enough data to say that a high effort put into coal mining would not result in a continuing rise in CO2 levels? I thought recent reports indicated that the data on coal reserves were even more unreliable than those for oil.

the chaps at Uppsala agree with you.
http://www.energybulletin.net/29845.html

The conclusions are a lot more than "unreliable". Two issues with coal, its distribution (China doesn't have much) and that unlike oil R/P ratios are falling.

See Coal - The Roundup

[Bozzio]

For your information, PO will likely cause us humans to use more coal and doubtless this will not be done in a way that will aid a reduction in CO2.

There aren?t the reserves/productive capacity to substitute the falling CO2 emissions due to peak oil with alternative sources of CO2 emissions. Peak oil correlates pretty closely with peak CO2 emissions in my opinion.

In which case, I say bring on PO as quickly as possible if CO2 levels are to drop thereafter.

One question therefore. Why is the climate change lobby, including Monbiot, ordering us to live low carbon lifestyles and using the guilt trip method of shaming and attacking those who produce too much CO2 to further their case when PO will force this upon us anyway within a few years? It comes back to my earlier issue about why Monbiot divorced his climate arguments from the PO debate. Perhaps he was just trying to justify his book 'Heat' which would be pointless (and therefore worthless) if made the full consequences of PO in relation to CO2 known.

[biffvernon]

One question therefore. Why is the climate change lobby, including Monbiot, ordering us to live low carbon lifestyles and using the guilt trip method of shaming and attacking those who produce too much CO2 to further their case when PO will force this upon us anyway within a few years?

Maybe it comes down to the realization that even if peak oil and peak CO2 emissions happen very soon, there is already so much CO2 up there that we have a problem.

Hence calls for 110% cut in emission i.e. we have to capture and store CO2 from the atmosphere as well as to stop emitting more.

[Vortex]

I don't quite understand why handing out DVD's and posting on websites doesn't count but I guess you have to justify your position somehow.

I think I have written a dozen or so letters to various MP's and newspapers. I've demonstrated on several occasions also, locally and in London. My efforts are only a tiny part of the movement but they help.

Incidently I have done the same thing for PO, except the demonstrating bit. I had one letter published in a trade magazine relevant to my profession.

Hmm - so you are writing letters, handing out DVDs & generally making a fuss purely on second hand evidence.

This reminds me of the anti-Rushdie rioters who were asked which part of The Satanic Verses they disliked most:
"Oh, I haven't read it ... the Imam has done that and has told us of the evil it contains."

So who is your "guru", the person on persons who has collected the primary evidence that you are basing your opinions on?

Do you trust this person?

Where is this evidence collected & available for scrutiny?

(I don't mean rambling videos ... I mean photos, photocopies of incriminating government docs etc)

[Bozzio]

I don't quite understand why handing out DVD's and posting on websites doesn't count but I guess you have to justify your position somehow.

I think I have written a dozen or so letters to various MP's and newspapers. I've demonstrated on several occasions also, locally and in London. My efforts are only a tiny part of the movement but they help.

Incidently I have done the same thing for PO, except the demonstrating bit. I had one letter published in a trade magazine relevant to my profession.

Hmm - so you are writing letters, handing out DVDs & generally making a fuss purely on second hand evidence.

This reminds me of the anti-Rushdie rioters who were asked which part of The Satanic Verses they disliked most:
"Oh, I haven't read it ... the Imam has done that and has told us of the evil it contains."

So who is your "guru", the person on persons who has collected the primary evidence that you are basing your opinions on?

Do you trust this person?

Where is this evidence collected & available for scrutiny?

(I don't mean rambling videos ... I mean photos, photocopies of incriminating government docs etc)

Vortex,

How many oil fields and refineries have you visited? Have you spoken to oil industry execs in Saudi on a one to one basis about PO?

I hope so because I'd hate you to believe in peak oil based upon second hand analysis gleamed from books and web sites like this one.

And while I'm at it, aren't you basing your views regarding 9/11 on second hand evidence also. Have you seen the actual proof and held it in your hands that Osama bin Laden carried it out?

[Bozzio]

One question therefore. Why is the climate change lobby, including Monbiot, ordering us to live low carbon lifestyles and using the guilt trip method of shaming and attacking those who produce too much CO2 to further their case when PO will force this upon us anyway within a few years?

Maybe it comes down to the realization that even if peak oil and peak CO2 emissions happen very soon, there is already so much CO2 up there that we have a problem.

Hence calls for 110% cut in emission i.e. we have to capture and store CO2 from the atmosphere as well as to stop emitting more.

Yes, but us mere mortals (i.e. the public) cannot provide CO2 sequestration facilities at home. Monbiot's book is therefore pointless taking into account PO.

[biffvernon]

Well I've never defended Monbiot's book, and I gather he now thinks that his book underplayed the seriousness of the situation.

[Bozzio]

Well I've never defended Monbiot's book, and I gather he now thinks that his book underplayed the seriousness of the situation.

If the situation is so serious, how can Monbiot cut loose the PO element of the debate and suggest it doesn't matter, when clearly it does?

[clv101]

Well I've never defended Monbiot's book, and I gather he now thinks that his book underplayed the seriousness of the situation.

If the situation is so serious, how can Monbiot cut loose the PO element of the debate and suggest it doesn't matter, when clearly it does?

Probably the same way most people don't consider peak oil - nothing special about Monbiot in that regard.

[Bozzio]

Well I've never defended Monbiot's book, and I gather he now thinks that his book underplayed the seriousness of the situation.

If the situation is so serious, how can Monbiot cut loose the PO element of the debate and suggest it doesn't matter, when clearly it does?

Probably the same way most people don't consider peak oil - nothing special about Monbiot in that regard.

So why listen to Monbiot at all?

[Vortex]

Have you spoken to oil industry execs in Saudi on a one to one basis about PO?

When I first heard about Peak Oil I suspected that the PO web sites might simply be juvenile junk.

Accordingly I spent some of my hard earned money and attended the "Oil Depletion" event last year at the Energy Institute in London in order to see if industry professionals had ever heard of Peak Oil, and if they believed in it.

I was prepared to hear them laugh it off ... but in fact the presenters were all convinced of Peak Oil .. although the dates varied a bit.

The scariest bit was the UK government representative saying that they couldn't deal with Peak Oil at the moment because they were finding it hard enough to keep natural gas flowing into the UK on a day-to-day basis!

Much more importantly, during the coffee & lunch breaks I chatted with the attendees ... many/most of whom were from the major oil companies. I asked THEM if they thought that Peak Oil was real ... and, yes, they did.

A few months later a friend introduced me to a millionaire who owns a big chunk of Alberta. I asked HIM if he thought Peak Oil was real. He didn't answer for a while, but eventually said: "My people have estimated Peak Oil will arrive in 2008".

So, yes, I have made a fair attempt to check out the Peak Oil story .. using sources apart from the web ... in fact talking to real grown-ups in the oil & gas industries.