Why bother?

Andy Hunt · Post by **Andy Hunt** » 21 Jun 2007, 10:43

After reading all the recent 'doomer' posts and articles, I can't help thinking, 'well, if we are that stuffed, then why bother at all?'

At what point does it cease to be worth trying to salvage anything at all from the coming train wreck?

If all the future holds is selfishness and violence, is it worth even trying to build something sustainable? What would be the point of living in such a future?

If human nature dictates that we are basically all out for ourselves at everyone else's expense, wouldn't it really be better if humanity did become extinct?

Instead of worry about it all on here, we could be partying, blowing our accumulated wealth on one heck of a bash.

What good reason do we have not to?

Andy Hunt · Post by **Andy Hunt** » 21 Jun 2007, 11:29

Just to add that it hasn't escaped my notice that some of the more optimistic members of the forum such as Tattercoats and Aliwood, both members who always showed great resourcefulness in production of home goods and sustainable living, seem to have given up on Powerswitch.

I know that Tattercoats posts on the It's Not Easy Being Green forum. Maybe some of the more practical members of our community are getting fed up with all the doom and gloom and are moving on to communities who are actually doing something practical about it all?

Are we facing 'Peak Powerswitch'?

Norm · Post by **Norm** » 21 Jun 2007, 11:37

Andy,

I think you are now just on the far doomerish side of the optimist - pessimist pendulum that we all endure from time to time. The world will not end only change. Utopia or Mad Max world, the reality will probably be somewhere inbetween.

MacG · Post by **MacG** » 21 Jun 2007, 11:37

Nahh.. It just *looks* a bit hopeless because we know that life will change, but not exactly into what it will change. A bit of 'fear of the unknown' I guess. And all this talk about 'selfishness' is a bit exaggerated me think. As I see it, humans are extremely social beings, and we tend to bunch together and form societies given half a chance. It's just the affluence of the last 300 years which has made way for 'individualism' as we know it.

When economies collapse, societies just reorganize themselves, albeit at a lower energy level. Yes, terrible suffering and deaths occur, but some people manage just fine. The elderly, the young and the infirm tend to be worst off, along with those who need nice titles, nice cars and lots of 'social status' to get along. Someone who master some basic skills, find a group to get along with and can enjoy the simple things in life -like watching a beautiful sunset- will probably do just fine after the initial shock.

I strongly recommend reading Dmitry Orlov - the 'Societal Crash Guru' in my book.

Now I'll go out and check out the sheep.

Vortex · Post by **Vortex** » 21 Jun 2007, 11:43

An optimistic family spit in the face of Peak Oil.

"Lets's get an allotment" says Jane.
"I'll sell my car and get a bike" says John.

Sorry, couldn't resist that ...

Erik · Post by **Erik** » 21 Jun 2007, 11:51

It's could be just a phase we're going through... but if we really are as close to the peak as some analysts are suggesting then it's only natural for more doom to set in.

Interesting what you say about peak powerswitch though, I mean, once PO is accepted universally and we're in indisputable global decline, then is there a need for a website "dedicated to raising awareness & discussion of the impending & permanent decline of cheap oil & gas supply"?

SunnyJim · Post by **SunnyJim** » 21 Jun 2007, 11:56

Don't loose hope!

I learned of an experiment, the outcome of which was so compelling that I never forgot it, and which bears directly on the subject of this issue. In the experiment, two groups of rats were individually placed in containers filled with water. One group had previous experience of having been left in the water for a period of time during which they were able to swim about, and after which they were ?rescued?? that is, they were removed from the water. The others had no such prior experience. Subsequently, the experimenters simply clocked the amount of time each animal swam before drowning when placed in a water-filled container. (This experiment clearly predates the raising of our consciousness about animal rights.) They found that those animals with the experience of rescue swam for a significantly longer time than those without the ?hope-inducing? experience (see the paper in this issue by Shlomo Breznitz). So, even in rats hope is important and can prolong life.

It's too easy to be a doomer. We're not an African nation. We are Britain! We really can get through this. We have a share of all that Iraqi oil to help us ease our way down. We have a huge housing stock of good houses to shelter us and keep us warm. We have lots of good agricultural land, and we have knowledge, science and resourcefullness. We have SO much STUFF hanging round in garages, landfills etc that can be used and pressed into service that things will never get THAT bad. There are not that many guns on UK streets. Farmers have more guns than will be held by lawless gangs. And farmers can shoot. Rest easy!

isenhand · Post by **isenhand** » 21 Jun 2007, 12:06

Andy Hunt wrote:
Instead of worry about it all on here, we could be partying, blowing our accumulated wealth on one heck of a bash.

What good reason do we have not to?

Peak oil is not the end of the world, people will live on far beyond peak oil. After all, we had advanced civilisations without oil.

I think of it as an opportunity to think about what type of society we do want and then to work towards it.

Vortex · Post by **Vortex** » 21 Jun 2007, 12:10

Erik wrote:It's could be just a phase we're going through... but if we really are as close to the peak as some analysts are suggesting then it's only natural for more doom to set in.

Interesting what you say about peak powerswitch though, I mean, once PO is accepted universally and we're in indisputable global decline, then is there a need for a website "dedicated to raising awareness & discussion of the impending & permanent decline of cheap oil & gas supply"?

Interesting points.

I wonder if "true believers" simply don't need this sort of forum once they have become converts?

Perhaps some of those who have become inactive here are away in the hills burying plastic sacks of lentils and practising with their shotguns?

Or more sensibly, they might be getting a smallholding or a solar-cell company set up?

Also, once you DO start on Plan B then you will probably have less time to spend on-line, even if you wanted to keep in contact.

This could mean that most of the current posters are still only 90% convinced that Peak Oil is "real" ... and are fervently hoping that the theory will be shown to be incorrect.

Andy Hunt · Post by **Andy Hunt** » 21 Jun 2007, 12:13

Vortex wrote:This could mean that most of the current posters are still only 90% convinced that Peak Oil is "real" ... and are fervently hoping that the theory will be shown to be incorrect.

Or maybe just enjoy the exchange with other intelligent people on the forum who they have come to know.

The title of the forum 'Powerswitch' could imply a practical forum for tackling PO. Once everyone knows about PO and accepts it, the forum could just become a forum for practical solutions and networking, which it is already to a small degree.

Post by **clv101** » 21 Jun 2007, 12:42

SunnyJim wrote:It's too easy to be a doomer. We're not an African nation. We are Britain! We really can get through this. We have a share of all that Iraqi oil to help us ease our way down. We have a huge housing stock of good houses to shelter us and keep us warm. We have lots of good agricultural land, and we have knowledge, science and resourcefullness. We have SO much STUFF hanging round in garages, landfills etc that can be used and pressed into service that things will never get THAT bad. There are not that many guns on UK streets. Farmers have more guns than will be held by lawless gangs. And farmers can shoot. Rest easy!

None of those attributes prevent Britain facing economic collapse - against pretty much all of those metrics the USSR in 1988 scores higher than Britain in 2008 yet they suffered something like 50% economic contraction within just a few years.

SunnyJim · Post by **SunnyJim** » 21 Jun 2007, 12:58

Indeed. I didn't say we wouldn't suffer economic contraction though, only that it wasn't the end of the world, and that the chances are that organised society would prevail against the lawless gangs.

Economic contraction is OK in my book. If I'm growing 50% of my food then I'm spending 50% less at Tescos. That's economic contraction, but I'm not starving. It means the government gets less revenue, tescos gets less profits (and its shares fall) but it doesn't mean that there is less food in the world.

brasso · Post by **brasso** » 21 Jun 2007, 12:59

It's a little disconcerting hearing you so down Andy.

Talking of the soviet collapse, perhaps Dmitry Orlov can give you some solace:

Most Americans have heard of Communism, and automatically believe that it is an apt description of the Soviet system, even though there was nothing particularly communal about a welfare state and a vast industrial empire run by an elitist central planning bureaucracy. But very few of them have ever heard of the real operative "ism" that dominated Soviet life: Dofenism, which can be loosely translated as "not giving a rat's ass". A lot of people, more and more during the "stagnation" period of the 1980's, felt nothing but contempt for the system, did what little they had to get by (night watchman and furnace stoker were favorite jobs among the highly educated) and got all their pleasure from their friends, from their reading, or from nature.

Our future will be harsh, and there will probably be a die-off to some extent. But all we really need to get by is water, food and warmth.

oilslick · Post by **oilslick** » 21 Jun 2007, 13:00

clv101 wrote:None of those attributes prevent Britain facing economic collapse - against pretty much all of those metrics the USSR in 1988 scores higher than Britain in 2008 yet they suffered something like 50% economic contraction within just a few years.

Ah, that should snap Andy out of it!

PowerSwitchJames · Post by **PowerSwitchJames** » 21 Jun 2007, 13:01

Hi folks,
Sorry, been away from the forums more than I would like...Saw some mention of doom and gloom...well, we wouldn't be interested in Peak Oil if it wasn't for the threat of doom and gloom, which is why we're going out there and yelling at people to wake up, and y'know what, people are waking up, especially at an institutional level. I've often said that it'd take a crisis or shock event to wake people up, but maybe the stalling oil production levels is making more people think "eh?" and the Peak Oil analysis looks more and more plausible to those who were initially skeptical. The people picking up on it, in media, finance, government etc. are intelligent people who can probably appreciate what it all means...I daresay the bigger challenge is the grassroots level.

We all know it isn't going to be smooth or pleasant or easy, the peak, bumpy plateau, and decline, but getting all doomy and gloomy? We don't have a right, as yet, to get all doomy and gloomy - just compare out situation to those in Darfur...Darfur is pretty much as bad as it gets, and it is happening right now. We've all just gotta keep doing all we can to keep on spreading the message and changing lives for the better.

PowerSwitch

Why bother?

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Re: Why bother?

Chin up!